Clarity and Philanthropy with Jia Xian Seow of Asia Community Foundation - Episode 42

Embark on an enlightening journey with Episode 42 of "The Legal Genie Podcast" as your host, Lara Quie, engages in a compelling conversation with Jia Xian Seow. Dive deep into the world of philanthropy and legal advisory as Jia Xian shares her experiences as the Director of Legal Planning and Advisory at the Asia Community Foundation. 

Discover the fascinating backstory of a legal professional who didn't come from a family of lawyers, breaking the mold to become the first in her family to join the legal industry. Unveil the twists and turns of Jia Xian's journey, from a surprising detour from accounting to a pivotal decision that led her to law school. Join the conversation as Jia Xian reflects on her time at Dentons Rodyk, where she spent 15 years as a partner specializing in philanthropy, private wealth, and tax. 

Hear the unexpected anecdotes, from applying for an entrepreneurship program not typically open to law students to navigating the evolving landscape of legal services. Gain insights into the challenges and reflections that shaped Jia Xian's career path, including the shifting dynamics of the legal market, the importance of mentorship, and the internal struggles of balancing personal values with business development expectations. 

As Jia Xian unveils the pivotal moments that led her to explore tax law and eventually philanthropy, discover the motivations behind her transition from private wealth to focusing on giving back and reshaping wealth distribution. Explore the innovative initiatives she spearheaded within her firm, paving the way for the establishment of a philanthropy practice. 

Delve into the significance of clarity and reflection, as Jia Xian candidly shares her personal struggles with work-life balance, especially during a challenging year of juggling multiple roles. Learn how the unexpected events of COVID-19 and personal milestones influenced her decision to embrace a new path cantered around philanthropy. 

Join Lara and Jia Xian in this thought-provoking episode that goes beyond the legal realm, offering valuable insights into the intersection of law, philanthropy, and personal fulfilment. It's not just a podcast; it's an exploration of one woman's journey to align her professional endeavours with her passion for making a positive impact on the world. Don't miss "The Legal Genie Podcast" - where legal stories come to life!

You can connect with Jia Xian Seow via her LinkedIn here: 

Jia Xian Seow | LinkedIn

You can find out about the Asia Community Foundation here: Home - Asia Community Foundation (asiacf.org)

And email: Hello@asiacf.org

You can find Asia Philanthropy Circle here: Asia Philanthropy Circle –

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

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Transcript

Clarity and Philanthropy with Jia Xian Seow - Episode 42

[00:00:00] Lara Quie: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Legal Genie Podcast, where I bring you insightful conversations with the movers and shakers of the legal industry. This podcast is a labour of love, recorded, edited, and sponsored by me, Lara Quie, in my spare time. So if you have ever got any value from these episodes, please, would you do me a big favour and subscribe to the show on Apple or Spotify?

[00:00:41] I would be even more grateful if you could share this episode with your friends and family and leave a rating and review so that the show can reach even more listeners. Thank you and on with the show.​

[00:00:53] Hello and welcome to Episode 42 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. And today I am delighted to be with Jia Xian Seow. Jia Xian, it's so good to be with you. So Jia Xian is Director of Legal Planning and Advisory at the Asia Community Foundation, a non-profit organization.

[00:01:18] ACF journeys with partners to grow purposeful giving across Asia through administration of donor advised and collaborative funds, philanthropic advisory and fostering of communities of purpose. Jiaxian was previously at Denton's, Rodyk and Davidson LLP for 15 years, where she was a partner, and her principal areas of practice were philanthropy, private wealth, and tax. Welcome to the show, Jiaxian. 

[00:01:47] Jia Xian Seow: Hi there, Lara. So happy to be on this podcast and thank you for having me. 

[00:01:52] Lara Quie: Well, we did connect at the Denton's alumni event, and I was super excited to learn all about your work in the philanthropic space. That's something I'm definitely really keen on and interested in, but I'd love to start with a bit of background about you because this podcast is very much a mentoring podcast, all about career journeys. So tell me about your childhood and where you grew up. 

[00:02:17] Jia Xian Seow: Sure. Yeah. In fact, I love to have this opportunity to share a little bit more about my journey and my career and how really it's really been through all kinds of ups and downs and twists and turns. So in terms of my childhood born in Singapore. Didn't come from a family background with family members who are lawyers.

[00:02:38] So definitely the first lawyer in the family. In fact, my parents and even my older sibling are somewhat in the creative field. So my mom teaches the piano and my dad is in the advertising industry and my sister is in communications and media, so very much first to join the legal industry.

[00:03:00] And in fact, I would say in terms of my childhood it is the well, not typical, but I would say stereotypical sort of, perception that people would have of an Asian sort of a family background where, my parents are mostly like, Oh, if you're doing well in school, you really should just focus on having a professional sort of career in the future.

[00:03:19] So, if you're thinking of what to study in university, it should definitely be the usual medicine, law, accounting, engineering kind of thing. So I really was pretty much in fact, hemmed in by that because originally, I had wanted to do music, but that got completely shut down despite my mother being a piano teacher.

[00:03:41] But yes, in terms of how I even started the process of getting into law school. Be happy to share more about that as well. 

[00:03:50] Lara Quie: Yeah, completely. You said that you're from this creative family. So what inspired you to study law then? I mean, was it just those tiger parents saying, Oh, and then you said, okay, 

[00:04:02] Jia Xian Seow: I hope I don't disappoint, but you know, this is a almost like real life in some instances, where it was certainly not the case where, since childhood, I'd always dreamed of being a lawyer.

[00:04:14] That's definitely not the case. In fact, sadly, I would have to say it was by a process of elimination in terms of, okay, I know that I'm not going to be a doctor and engineering is not for me. So what's left in terms of the options for a professional degree would be Accountancy and law, and I applied for those in that order.

[00:04:38] So meaning law wasn't even my first choice. And it was a very simplistic sort of way of thinking where, let me look and see, what. The best grades I have, what subject that is, and that was actually in math, and for some reason I had thought that perhaps by joining the accounting profession, I would make full use of my, my, my math abilities, but we all know that's not necessarily the case.

[00:05:03] However, I would make a side comment here to say that we did eventually perhaps, uh, reach full circle on that because I ended up doing tax law, right? And who knows, maybe if I had ended up being in the accounting profession, I would have also still ended up doing tax, so you never really know how life takes, uh, different, yeah, twists and turns exactly.

[00:05:23] So I applied for accounting as my first choice and law as my second choice. I did get into accounting, which was my first choice once my A level results were out. However, maybe just because of the admissions process, I was still asked to go for the interview and the admissions exam for the local law school.

[00:05:44] At that time in Singapore, it was just National University of Singapore, the SMU law school had not yet fully sort of, opened up. So I went for the admissions exam, the interview, everything, and ultimately when the results were out, I thought, oh, okay, I got into my first choice, which is accounting and that's that.

[00:06:03] However, before term started in the accounting school that would have been an NTU I got a call from the law school and they said, "congratulations, you got into law school", and I said, "Oh, but wait a minute, but law is not my first choice", and so they were taken aback.

[00:06:18] They said, "what? Law is not your first choice? And so they said, "well, of course we'll just call someone else then". And I said, but this is the part where perhaps there was some element of fortuitousness. I mean, I did hesitate at that point, and I did say, "wait, can I take some time to think about it?"

[00:06:37] If really it is this case that I can choose between accounting and law. And I hadn't really put much thought into it at all prior to that. And so, they said, yeah, sure. And I said, how much time can you give me to think about it? And he said, 20 minutes. And I was like, what? 20 minutes? 20 minutes, really?

[00:06:53] But when I thought about it, actually, there would be so many others who would be just dying for the chance, to say, yes, of course, I would love to accept your offer of admission. And so I thought, I can't be unfair to others. And so if 20 minutes is what they're going to give to me, 20 minutes is what I'll take.

[00:07:10] So I put down the phone. And because I'm driven very much by my faith. My family members were not available at that time as well, for a chat. So within that 20 minutes, I got on my knees, and really I prayed, but however, it wasn't like there was any booming voice that told me what exactly I should say in response.

[00:07:28] And all I knew was when that 20 minutes was up, I had to call the law school back. And when I called them back in typical. local fashion, they said, so how? And I said, okay. And so within that split second, it was really that determined the next, who would have thought another 15 plus law school, another four years plus taking the Bar.

[00:07:50] Yeah. 20 years of my life, just like that. It was just within a split second where I had just said, okay, and that was it. So, it may sound almost random, but I, definitely believe that things happen in life for a reason, and you may not, at that point of time, know why. But there are really many different paths in life, right?

[00:08:10] And you never really know where that would take you. And it's just about kind of being able to adapt along the way and to get to know yourself along the way. 

[00:08:18] Lara Quie: I think what your story shows, though, is that... there are so many, as you say, paths into law, and so many people fall into it for all sorts of reasons, and especially if they happen to be very strong in their academics.

[00:08:32] People get pushed into law all the time. They're told, "Oh, wow, you're a four A star student. You need to be a lawyer". But it is the sort of profession where just strong academics isn't really enough, is it? I mean, it sounds like you had the mathematical ability, but the fact that you chose law having thought about it for 20 minutes It is one of those things where, a lot of people do dream about being a lawyer.

[00:08:58] It is something aspirational for many, especially those whose academics were not that great. So you did go to NUS but I did notice that you also had a year abroad at the University of Pennsylvania. So tell me a bit about that, like how that came about, why you went and, whether it was just part of your course.

[00:09:17] Jia Xian Seow: So that's also a really interesting question and kind of gave a hint as well as to the kind of person that I am and the fact that perhaps it's just reflective of the fact that I had never always from the start kind of aspired to be a lawyer, right? So I was always searching in terms of my career, in terms of what direction that would take.

[00:09:39] Eventually. And so, in fact, this is a great story as well. This is a program that I applied for. It's called the NUS Overseas Colleges Program. And what it is really is an entrepreneurship program that's offered by NUS. However, the interesting thing is that this program is not normally or officially offered to medical and law students.

[00:10:02] But yet I applied for it and I got in so that in itself is an interesting story. However, of course, I think underlying all of that in terms of the application was this sense that I wanted to explore something outside of law and particularly to explore the connection between law and entrepreneurship.

[00:10:22] So I was really drawn by that. which is the reason why I applied for this program. And perhaps because of the fact that I even bothered to go through the process and the interview, the admissions team of NUS overseas colleges and OC could see that. And. At the law faculty side, I also managed to get a leave of absence from the faculty, which I'm really thankful for.

[00:10:46] They also kept a really open mind. And they said, why should we limit your possibilities on this? And it's totally fine for you to take a leave of absence as other people do as well. And by all means, go and explore. And furthermore, this program, the way that it is run is that students who are accepted into NOC would work in either a startup or a startup related sort of organization in a satellite partner program.

[00:11:13] Location and undertake academic studies in entrepreneurship at the partner university that NUS has partnered with. So, in my case, that was in Philadelphia and Pennsylvania, and I studied. In the University of Pennsylvania, in terms of the courses on entrepreneurship, as well as the home faculty that you're from.

[00:11:34] So, which is, which means that for me, I did also do some courses in the law faculty in UPenn even though as we know, in the U. S. Law is not an undergraduate degree. So that was really again, another almost stroke of luck for me in terms of opening up my perspective in terms of the options for career that, I can consider because, and I would share this with a bit of hesitation that year turned out to be the year that I enjoyed the most of my entire year in law school, because it allowed me to apply maybe a bit of what I've learned in the previous few years in law school in a very practical context whilst working. And for me, I worked in the startup incubator in Philadelphia.

[00:12:18] And also thinking about all the kind of maybe interconnections between law and entrepreneurship, even whilst I was studying or working in Philadelphia. So that was a wonderful opportunity. And that also formed the basis for my application to Denton's. At that time, it was Rodyk and Davidson. And perhaps we can leave that also to the next stage of my journey. 

[00:12:41] Lara Quie: Yeah. So what I hear though, is that you have a very inquiring and adventurous mind and personality and the fact that you sought out this program that was obviously abroad, not every Singaporean wants to go abroad. So tell me about what you learned from your experience of living in Philadelphia.

[00:13:05] Jia Xian Seow: Well, to begin with, I suppose one thing that I would note that of course the legal system in the US is different, right? So in terms of the legal knowledge completely different system, and in any case, the focus there was on entrepreneurship. So it really was practical. We went down to even having to think of an innovative idea and how to bring that idea to the marketplace.

[00:13:29] So how would you think of commercializing that idea and all the operational aspects that go into that outside of just, thinking about law. So that in itself was an eye opener, because prior to that, I would say it was really my studies in NUS was very academic, right? Because it's all on the different modules within the realm of law.

[00:13:48] Whereas this was a whole breath of fresh air altogether in terms of thinking about the business world in terms of thinking about starting your own business and how to bring that into fruition and to serve a need that is out there in the market. So I think that is something which I could not have learned in law school.

[00:14:06] However, of course, if you were to say in Philadelphia maybe also because of where I stayed, rather than staying on campus, I stayed in the city. So I think it really is also a cultural experience in itself, right? As it would be the case for even a law student who's going on exchange, In a law school overseas. I think it would have been similar sort of, takeaways and learnings from being in a culture that's completely different from your own. And even having to do, in some cases project work together with others who have not, grown up under the same kind of like a cultural background and context as you have and still needing to find a way to make things work and to be able to communicate clearly, in terms of what is needed and how to get there as a team. So that's something which I learned. 

[00:14:51] Lara Quie: I do think that many young Singaporeans would really benefit from a year abroad. I think that Singapore is quite a bubble. It is a very safe and nice bubble with very high standards of living. The sun always shines every day, but a dose of reality in terms of the real world and the real-world struggles and the way that many other cultures think is quite important. so would you recommend a year abroad to other young Singaporeans? 

[00:15:23] Jia Xian Seow: Without hesitation at all. Yes. For sure, any chance that you can take, and even if it has to involve taking a leave of absence like I did. Do I regret it?

[00:15:32] No way. In fact, I wish I had stayed there longer. Because actually in the large scheme of things, and this is something which I have thought about as well, which is that life spans are getting much longer. We are in terms of life expectancy, projected to have a life expectancy, especially women of over 90 years reaching up to 100 years.

[00:15:50] And so just 1 year even of a leave of absence. It's really nothing in that larger scheme of things. And so to me, absolutely. Yes. 

[00:15:58] Lara Quie: Well, it's really good to hear that. And so you mentioned Denton's and obviously Rodyk and Davidson in those days before the tie up, but what did you do to get a pupillage?

[00:16:09] Jia Xian Seow: Oh my goodness. Those times were so different from what it was right now. Times are different and in terms of the market right now for legal services, drastically different. At that time, it was very much the employee's market. And so for us, really, even as a law student.

[00:16:27] I would say that it was not absolutely critical to have internships to the same degree that it is definitely expected today. So I would even share this anecdote. I went for the law careers fair when I was in year 2 in NUS and at that Careers fair I spoke to a lawyer of a local large firm.

[00:16:47] And the first question that they asked me was, which year are you in? And I said, Oh, I'm in second year going on to 3rd year and they said, well, what are you doing here? You don't need to be applying for an internship at all. And so, and I took it at face value and I said, oh, really?

[00:17:03] And so I left the careers fair because to me, if I have a lawyer. telling me that it's not needed then pretty much maybe I should use my vacation time to be doing something else that I would like to pursue. And there's nothing wrong with that. However, of course, I do recognize that times might be different right now.

[00:17:20] And so for me, in, terms of applying for my pupillage I very much looked at what the different firms, their capabilities and whether or not that aligned with what I hoped to be able to do as a lawyer. And for me, of course, having come back fresh from my experience in Philadelphia, I was really hoping to be a lawyer for startups and to help on the legal aspects of entrepreneurship. And so I looked up specifically for that. And one of the main results that came out in my search was Gerald. Gerald at the time had a profile that said that he practiced in this area, that he advised startup founders, and that immediately drew me in and so, which is why in my application to Rodyk I, I specifically stated and indicated in my application that I hoped to be able to work with Gerald because he was advising founders of startups, and that was an area which I had a great degree of passion.

[00:18:17] Lara Quie: Do you want to tell people more about Gerald explain exactly who he is? 

[00:18:21] Jia Xian Seow: Yeah, sure. So Gerald was my pupil master eventually, and it's now the managing partner of Denton's Rodyk. He, at the time that I joined Denton's was a corporate senior partner and still is at present, in addition to his managing partner responsibilities.

[00:18:40] Lara Quie: Good. So you were there 15 years, so rising through the ranks, you know, associate and junior partner, et cetera. Many young lawyers think about what it's like to be a partner and what it takes. So thinking about your journey, what were the challenges and what were the things that you think that in those days made you partnership material?

[00:19:04] Jia Xian Seow: That's a great question. This is something that really, well at least during my time in law school, was not emphasized, which is that when you graduate from law school, and assuming that you do join a law firm and you enter practice, ultimately, the pathway, if you were to stay long term, would be to see yourself as a business owner, and not just providing legal advice.

[00:19:25] And that was something which was not emphasized to me, at least, in law school. Certainly, along the way, that became apparent, because even as an associate, they start talking to you about business development. And that is something which is totally foreign to, at least to me, it was at my time.

[00:19:43] That element of practice was not discussed in my legal education in law school. And of course, at the junior level, expectations that are placed on you as an associate on business development are not as high, but as you rise through the ranks, of course, the expectations do get more and more sort of rigorous, right?

[00:20:04] And more is expected from you in terms of not just the time that you spend, but also the types of relationships that you are able to sort of develop. And so that was something which definitely weighed on my mind. Along the way, and to me, maybe personality wise. I develop my relationships never with a certain specific agenda other than because I get along well with them, and I feel that there's something that I can provide to them.

[00:20:32] And also that to me, there's a very stark difference between. A business relationship and a personal relationship. So I struggled quite a bit with that. And I would say that was maybe one of the challenges that I struggled with where I felt even uncomfortable doing business development with friends.

[00:20:48] But yet, in terms of my personal network. My personal network is made up of my friends, and so I really struggled with that. And on top of that, I think one thing that I also struggled with was asking myself if I'm doing business development, then what am I in the business of doing?

[00:21:04] What am I in the business of doing? And not just that, do I see myself remaining in that business for the next 20 years to be able to really invest deeply in building relationships in this space. So, I mean, there were definitely several layers to this question that you're asking, and I struggle with all of them, however, of course, I would say that Dentons definitely provided an absolute family culture to me. And so, which is why perhaps maybe some of my personal friends would say to me, wow, I can't believe that you were in practice for 15 years, you were talking about potentially not being in practice since year five. But you have lasted beyond that. And I actually attribute that to the fact that the culture and the team and the mentorship that I had in Rodyk itself made it so easy for me to just to stay on and to try my best.

[00:22:00] But always there was that, that, that part of me at the back of my mind, these concerns on perhaps somewhat of a misalignment. It was there. 

[00:22:11] Lara Quie: Yes. And so, other things you're talking about in terms of the misalignment over the years, because you were in practice for 15 years. Did you really notice this move towards such a focus on the billable hour, on targets, on that kind of, perhaps longer hours, culture, et cetera? Was that very much a sort of a stressor that you noticed?

[00:22:33] Jia Xian Seow: Um, for me, not so much on the billable hours, because to me the billable hours are a product of how much time I want to put in to sort of develop the relationships and therefore get in the work to do the work. So to me, I looked deeper than that. And I thought instead what business is it that I'm trying to delve into and to develop because from there, I know myself, if I truly believe in the business that I'm doing, I would be willing to spend the time and I would have no problem on the billable hours. I'll be willing to go out there, get the business in and do the work that's necessary, right?

[00:23:05] To meet those billable targets. So that in itself, although of course is a traditional stressor, but to me from early on, I did think to myself, is this something that I really want to do? Even before thinking about, do I want to spend a lot of time on this? To me, that's like a, the primary question first.

[00:23:22] Lara Quie: And so, it sounds like you went in first and you were doing corporate law because you were really focused on the startup scene, but over time you sort of transitioned into tax and then into private wealth and philanthropy. So tell me about that journey. 

[00:23:39] Jia Xian Seow: Sure. Happy to. So. Although I might have started out with, in a sense, rose tinted lenses on being a lawyer for startup founders, I think the realities were that it is not always in alignment with the profit maximizing motives, of any business really, right? So if I were to be a lawyer for startup founders, there would be limited resources, right? For startup founders, in many cases, to be able to pay for legal services. And the fact of the matter was that we, as a team, we were getting matters from larger companies anyway.

[00:24:11] And rather than from startups. So I think quite early on, I realized that there was somewhat of a misalignment there. And that was fine because to me, especially since I hadn't done any internships, I very much took on a learning mindset. And I said to myself, it does not matter. So even if the original target that I had to be able to serve, startups did not really materialize, but, yet I felt that I should take on a learning sort of mindset. 

[00:24:40] I was fine with that at the start. However, I think as time went on. I would say maybe towards the second or the third year, I did start to get a little bit restless, and I did find the actual work itself to be somewhat dry. And so that was when I started thinking already by that time, third year as a, as an associate, but third year is also when you are potentially considered for promotion to senior associate.

[00:25:05] And so at that time, I really did think to myself, is this something that I see myself doing for let's say the next few years? And if not, then what should I think about? So I think what you had said earlier on in terms of an inquiring mind and being self aware even and reflecting on how I'm spending my time has always been present, I would say in my life.

[00:25:25] And that was when I started to think, okay, if my original intention is not materializing. What else can I do? And not just what else can I do personally, but also within this firm where I have found a wonderful work family and where I love my team and I love the culture. I love the friends, the friendships that I've built within the firm.

[00:25:45] What can I do that would be helpful for the firm as well? That's when I thought back on, apart from my year in Philadelphia what else in, in law school really caught my attention and resounded with me. And I thought that really, in fact, surprisingly to the tax law module that I took in NUS.

[00:26:04] And that tax law module was taught by an absolutely brilliant professor Stephen Phua, who still teaches at NUS. And really I found tax to be absolutely fascinating which is really kind of unusual. I would say maybe most lawyers would assume that tax is a absolutely boring subject. But really the power of education, I think, and the power of also the engagement a professor can have is evident here because I would say certainly that was Professor Stevens sort of instruction was a critical element in me eventually saying to Gerald and the senior partners. Hey, I noticed that we are actually referring a lot of our tax work out to tax firms.

[00:26:47] And why do we do that? And why not consider having a tax practice? And so Gerald again, this is a big compliment also to sort of Gerald's open mindedness to sort of, and open ears as well, to be able to hear the feedback that I provided. And he said," sure let's have a think about this."

[00:27:08] And he asked me, he said, "do you feel fully equipped to be able to be providing tax advice?" And I thought to myself, I will make myself fully equipped, of course, just taking one tax law module may not be sufficient. And so, as a result of which, what I did was I, by my own volition, I pursued this other accreditation.

[00:27:27] So at that time really in terms of tax accreditations, it wasn't fully developed locally yet. So, but however there was this because that was available at IRAS, which is the Inland Revenue Authority of Singapore. They were running this tax program. However, most of the attendees were all accountants.

[00:27:44] So I really was pretty much the only lawyer there, which is ironic, right? Because I had intended to originally be an accountant, right? So I went for this course and I got myself accredited. And on top of that, the firm also hired a consultant who came from the big four. And so that was a training round for me.

[00:28:04] And we slowly started providing tax advice instead of referring tax work out. And eventually, of course, that led to the firm going on a search for a senior partner who practices in tax, which is very hard to find locally. Very hard to find because it's such a specialized area. And by stroke of luck again That's how Edmund joined the firm eventually when he stepped off the bench.

[00:28:27] And when Edmund stepped off the bench and joined Denton's that's how I transitioned from working with Gerald to working with Edmund as my supervising senior partner. And then from there, that's how I also started practicing in the private wealth area because Edmund was formerly before being on the bench.

[00:28:45] He was a formerly managing partner at Baker & McKenzie and his scope of practice included both tax and also private wealth work. So, which is why when Edmund joined the firm, I not only did tax, but I also started to do private wealth work. 

[00:28:58] Would you like me maybe to share a little bit more of how I started to then think about philanthropy from moving from the private wealth area? 

[00:29:04] Yeah, go ahead. 

[00:29:06] So when I was doing work on tax and private wealth, I did already have small segment of clients who were interested in philanthropy and were looking at how to structure.

[00:29:17] I think the kind of initiatives that they hoped to be able to undertake in philanthropy. So we were already as a team involved in advising clients on what the potential structuring options were for them to carry out their philanthropy plans. So I think that what triggered my venture into philanthropy was the whole search I underwent prior to that and occasionally thinking about is this something that I see myself doing in the long term?

[00:29:45] And I did do that even when I was practicing in tax, which I would say is intellectually stimulating for sure. And I was engaged in that for a good 10 years. but beyond that, I think once I started doing the private wealth side of the work. Again, it is very meaningful because what you're doing really is you're helping families.

[00:30:02] You're helping individuals try and figure out what their plans are in the long term for their succession in terms of whether it's their family, their business, or any other sort of legacy objectives they may have. So that in itself is really meaningful. However, I did think even bit deeper as to whether or not as a broad.

[00:30:19] Thank you. Subject matter that was something that I saw myself doing for another 10, 20 years, because again, I think as the years went on, I got more and more senior. And as I get more and more senior, I'm required to, of course have a really clear business development plan. And so I would say two factors really got me thinking.

[00:30:39] And really not just got me thinking, but perhaps was almost like a kick, to me to think beyond just my existing team and the culture, but also beyond but also thinking about myself personally in terms of my path how I want or see myself in the next five, 10 or 20 years. The two factors were one, I had kids.

[00:31:01] I got married and I had kids, and the second thing was COVID. So that in addition to how I did feel this growing unease and misalignment. So those two things really were the main trigger for me. On the kids, I think when I had kids, I realized that, Hey, if I'm spending my time, not with my kids but on my work, I want to make sure that the time that I spend is time that makes spending time outside of my family and my home worthwhile. 

[00:31:30] So that was sort of one takeaway that I had. And with COVID, I think that COVID had the effect of blocking out a lot of distractions that I would normally kind of use to not think about what my path is going to be moving forward. You would normally go on holidays. You would be spending time with friends and, I'm not saying that those are distractions by themselves, but of course that would then leave very little time for self-reflection, which obviously COVID was in a sense, a blessing in disguise was able to, afford me time, right? To really think deeply about, okay, if I'm not spending time with my kids and if I'm looking right now at my tax and my private wealth practice, do I really see that as a worthwhile time for me to develop business relationships and to pursue that for the next 20 years? And the answer was no.

[00:32:20] And this is just really a personal sort of mindset that I had, which was that what am I really doing in my tax work? And also what am I really doing in my private wealth work? And I felt that what I was doing was in some ways. Helping to keep wealth where wealth was, whereas I felt like the area of work, which most resounded with me was the aspect of helping clients perhaps redistribute wealth and to give wealth away was what captured my imagination the most.

[00:32:50] So it took me a while, quite a bit of time before I was able to crystallize that. So I am also sort of, summarizing. But eventually I did reach that conclusion and I decided I need to bite the bullet and I need to, if that is the case, and I have crystallized that as the conclusion, I need to think up of a plan to work towards focusing just on that.

[00:33:13] Lara Quie: Well, thank you for sharing that journey. And I think you're right that the COVID period was very much a time of reflection and pause for many people. I think in the business of law, people are on a treadmill, they are running every single day. There isn't any time for looking at your life, considering the long-term, considering your purpose, et cetera.

[00:33:36] So, a lot of people had different ideas after COVID and many people made career changes or just adjustments to their lives in terms of what they want for themselves and also taking control. I think a lot of people realized that you can have a lot more control over your life than you thought once you are clear on your goals and you're clear on what will make a good and fulfilling life and the focus on health, on wellbeing, on mental health, on long term, on family, et cetera.

[00:34:10] I think it made people distill what their values are and to get much more clarity, just like you did. So January 2023, you took that leap of faith and you moved across to Asia Community Foundation. So tell me a bit about your actual work with them and give us some examples of the kind of philanthropy projects that you're involved in.

[00:34:35] Jia Xian Seow: Actually, I would also say that I did join the sister organization before that, and there was a period of time where I worked part time. I worked part time in partnership at Dentons, but also part time at Asia Philanthropy Circle. So that in itself also is interesting because Really what it was when I reached that point where I had decided, and like you had said reached that clarity that I wanted to focus on philanthropy.

[00:35:01] That was when the real work started, right? Where I had to figure out, okay, how am I going to pursue this? And so there were various ways of doing that. I could have applied for roles outside of the firm altogether and resigned completely. Which I tried, but however, I was not able to find any positions and I think this was one of the struggles which I did have, which is that once you are around year 10 in practice, it's often difficult to find any in house roles.

[00:35:28] Because by that time you are normally already at partnership, if not close to partnership level. And if you have not had any in house experience prior to that, most employers would not consider your application to be a very compelling one. And so, I had a lot of difficulty, even when I did try to apply outside of my role.

[00:35:46] And so, which is why what I did within the firm was I thought to myself, if it's not happening outside of the firm, I'll try and make it happen within the firm. And so I presented a pitch again to the senior partners. Once again, and I said, this is an area which I think there is potential not just in an and of its self philanthropy, but because it is a potential gateway for client relationships that can be developed that can have flow on effects for other practice areas as well.

[00:36:11] And so what I did was I mapped out very clearly for them in my proposal, three areas in which I think that this can really happen. Philanthropy as a standalone practice within the firm. And one is, you can build still a revenue producing practice working with the funders. So working with the foundations, working with the individuals who are looking for structuring, which is what I was already doing in my private wealth practice anyway, and which was fee producing.

[00:36:39] So that was one area of work, which I saw a potential in, and that definitely would have been revenue producing anyway. The second bucket of work would have been working with foreign non-profits that are looking to establish presence in Asia, for which these foreign nonprofits, they are often also have sufficient resources as well to pay legal fees.

[00:36:58] And so that was also another area of work, which I had proposed to the senior partners. There might be a need to give some discount, however, it would still nonetheless be at least partially revenue producing. And the third area of work which I presented to them under this umbrella of practice area was pro bono work.

[00:37:15] And I think prior to that pro bono work was something that was mostly undertaken, I would say, mostly by the disputes colleagues within the firm " is another whole subject matter in itself.

[00:37:27] So I presented that and the partner said, "yes, it sounds great" because also if you have a practice in this area, it is also great marketing too for the law firm for those outside to know that the firm is genuinely interested in this area and is willing to invest resources, and to commit to building up this practice to help not just the funders, but also the nonprofits, right?

[00:37:48] So that's what I did within the firm. And maybe to sweeten it, what I did was also, I told my senior partners that. I know that as a partner, my costs could be substantial. And so what I would do is I'll go part time and I will build up this practice. And when they accepted that proposal that left part time another substantial amount of my time freed up to be able to pursue this opportunity outside of the firm.

[00:38:11] Because, and you said it right? COVID forced, it's almost like a forced pause, right? And otherwise, without COVID if you are a full-time lawyer, it really is very difficult for you to carve out time to explore any other potential career paths. And so in this way, however, in the way that I had pursued it, I managed to seed and to initiate something within the firm that to me was purposeful and yet able to also free up time to go and pursue this interest outside of the firm, because I am conscious that what I know or what I can learn within the firm is only within the realms of law.

[00:38:46] And so I consciously reached out to people in the nonprofit space to find out more about what different people are doing in the philanthropic. Space and that is when actually I managed to then find this role in Asia Philanthropy Circle which really is the sister organization of my current organization, Asia Community Foundation, and it was in Asia Philanthropy Circle that I was first introduced.

[00:39:09] to this initiative now Asia Community Foundation and what they were hoping to achieve with that. So maybe I'll start first by explaining that Asia Philanthropy Circle is a membership of philanthropists who give throughout the Asian region and so there are at least 50 members right now spread out across the region and they have been actively giving.

[00:39:30] They have built up decades of philanthropic experience. And what Asia Philanthropy Circle does is to bring them together. It's a convening platform to help them to engage with each other and to collaborate on potential projects and initiatives that they may share in common. So that's what APC does, Asia Philanthropy Circle.

[00:39:49] However, I think what was quite apparent by the members of the members of APC they realized that, hey, there needs to be a platform, not just for the members, but for the broader potential funder. community to be able to give confidently, to give efficiently and securely in the region.

[00:40:10] Because I think that I truly believe that this is an issue that people are not necessarily opposed to giving regionally, but oftentimes do not know where to start. And so that was a core critical sort of problem that was identified that people might be interested to give but don't know where to start.

[00:40:29] And so therefore there needs to be a platform to be able to facilitate that. So that is essentially what Asia Community Foundation is set up to do. We are set up to help funders give effectively, efficiently. and securely in the region. So we do that by leaning on the experience of the members of Asia Philanthropy Circle because they've had decades of giving experience.

[00:40:51] Anyway, so that's what Asia Community Foundation does. In terms of my role there, given my background as a lawyer, of course all the legal work, the in-house legal work, is something that is a natural a skill set for me to be able to undertake, right? So, so of course, in terms of the legal in house, work.

[00:41:07] That's something which I do. But in addition to that with my skillset, also in advising private wealth clients, that is something that is also absolutely invaluable. And because Asia Community Foundation does serve a specific donor segment. So for regulatory purposes, Asia Community Foundation is not allowed to work with donors who are for example, your man on the street.

[00:41:28] So we are limited to working only with I would say the private wealth segment in terms of the profile of the donors or the funders we are working with. And so for me right now, what I do is I focus my time also on in addition to the legal work on building relationships with funders and potential funders and journeying with them to grow their philanthropy in the region. So that's what I do. 

[00:41:52] Lara Quie: Wow. Yeah, fantastic summary. And definitely there is so much wealth in the region. And as you say, it is a challenge though, because any time, even just as you know, a lay person sponsoring someone to do a charity run or something, there is always in the back of your mind, that feeling.

[00:42:10] Where is this money actually going? Is this really going to the orphanages, the various places that we want our money to go to, or is it disappearing off to fund somebody else's lavish lifestyle? And so the transparency and the ethical nature of the business is really called into question.

[00:42:32] And I think, especially for lawyers who, who want to donate and these high-net-worth individuals and these family offices who definitely want to give back, but they don't know how and where to start. And as you say, all of these experienced philanthropists coming together to share knowledge, to work together, to create even bigger projects and platforms is so much more powerful.

[00:42:56] Definitely as a group, they can be far more effective. What I hear though, in your journey, it's so interesting is that twice you basically had a startup within Dentons. You brought your startup learnings. Because you launched the tax practice, then you launched this whole philanthropy practice. And so that's really interesting. You are actually a startup founder twice. 

[00:43:21] Jia Xian Seow: I'm glad you picked that out because that was something also, which was unintentional. It was unintended, but it turned out to be that way. And when I think back to it, perhaps, there was already a pattern, right?

[00:43:31] Starting from the fact that I applied for the NUS Overseas Colleges Entrepreneurship Program. So that is somewhat of a threat there, but it's only on hindsight that you realize it. Because sometimes I may say that I take time to reflect on myself sometimes, but even then, you can never really truly fully know yourself.

[00:43:48] And it's only upon hindsight when you look at your journey that you realize there's something there. Yes. 

[00:43:52] Lara Quie: But what I also really notice is the fact that you built such incredibly deep relationships with these senior people, even as a very junior person, and that you established yourself as someone with enough credibility, ability and persuasiveness that they heard you, you said it wasn't amazing that Gerald listened to you when you said, Hey, what is this?

[00:44:18] We're always giving all of this tax to external accountants and we're missing a trick here. You know, I mean, we should be giving some of this tax advice and then you took it upon yourself to develop the skillset necessary, get the accreditation, sit there with all the accountants and, develop something from scratch and bring about a new service area that has obviously developed into something significant.

[00:44:40] But then having done that, you then again, pivoted away into a new area that aligned with your values in terms of, okay, I'm seeing all these high-net-worth individuals. I'm seeing that they've got a ton of money. There are some really tax efficient things you can do with the money. Let's not waste it.

[00:45:00] What is it they could do? How could I assist them do better things with their money? And that of course then morphed into the philanthropy side, and then this circle that you got involved in and these people, et cetera. But again, it's all about the relationships. It's about you joining the dots. It's about you thinking, how can I use my legal skills, my accountancy skills, my tax, my private wealth and everything and marry it all together in one thing?

[00:45:29] And then you said, you went part time. You were keen to focus on your family, you came out of COVID and you said, Whoa, the world is a different place now. How can I make sure that I'm living my best life and putting my skills in an area that's going to be meaningful for me for long term? And you made it happen. I mean, it's really a great story of creativity, perseverance, and just really following your gut, like really knowing that you had a higher calling. 

[00:46:00] Jia Xian Seow: Lara, what you said earlier on still to me is so important, which is that what you need always first is time to reflect and clarity. Once you have that clarity, then you can move into action. And I would not claim credit for all this happening all, together perfectly because I worked for it. A lot of things sometimes are beyond your control. So even the fact that my part time work with Dentons building up the philanthropy practice and getting this part time role, that in itself was beyond my control.

[00:46:29] I would have never expected that I would meet someone who would offer me a part time role, which so nicely fit in. But then again, there's also always sacrifice, right? Because my initial intention had been to work part time at Dentons, build that philanthropy practice, use the rest of my time to develop skills, maybe similar to the tax those years where I did the tax accreditation, I was hoping to do a graduate diploma in nonprofit management, but I was open to other potential opportunities.

[00:46:57] And that was when an offer came in from Asia Philanthropy Circle to say, Hey don't bother with your graduate diploma, come and work with us. And so that's how it happened. I would say though, that the sacrifice was that I initially intended to spend more time with my kids, but that unfortunately did not materialize.

[00:47:13] In fact, it became really difficult to juggle both my jobs in terms of both within Denton's and also as a partner, right? Within Denton's and not just building the philanthropy practice. I was also still doing my private work. So therefore, I was doing that on part time, but I was also doing this new role.

[00:47:30] So that really totally pushed up time that I had intended to spend with my family. So I would say that although it may sound nice and may sound perfect from the career perspective, yes, I felt that I was really learning a lot. I felt that things were falling into place. However, on the home front and in terms of the personal life, it suffered.

[00:47:51] So, and I want to be transparent about that too. For that year that I spent juggling both roles, it was not good. It was not good for the family life side of things. 

[00:48:00] Lara Quie: I appreciate that transparency. I think, women in particular do have to make choices when it comes to, how much focus can I put on my family and my career? And this whole, wanting it all at once, everything, everywhere, all at once, like the movie, it is really hard when you find a passion and you want to throw yourself in a hundred percent.

[00:48:22] And things that are called part time are never part time. They're really effectively double time. So, you know, two new areas plus your young family. But you know, you are someone who really thinks long term, right? This is all about the long game. And so, although you talk about this very difficult year that it was, now that you have transitioned full time into ACF, that must have given you now some better balance when it comes to your family, but it, yeah, you have to go through the hard times to achieve that. Right?

[00:48:55] Jia Xian Seow: Yes, it was precisely because I felt that it was reaching a point where it was unsustainable. And again, this is me reflecting again, right? So after such certain time has elapsed there comes a point where I had to ask myself, is this sustainable? If not, what should I do next?

[00:49:10] And that's when, again, I had to bite the bullet and make a choice between the two. And it was not easy because I've been with Rodyk for more than 15 years. And they have given me this opportunity to start this new practice. I cannot complain and say that, Oh I'm not really seeing myself doing this for the next 20 years.

[00:49:27] No, because they had said yes to my, proposal, so it was not an easy decision to make. Eventually, however, I think what I thought was that even right now, I would say, I do not dismiss the possibility of myself returning to practice in the future. I do not dismiss that possibility, however, at this point right now, there's this opportunity here to work on this initiative full time and it's an exciting initiative.

[00:49:50] The time is ripe because even locally in Singapore, and I'm not sure if listeners here or yourself may be aware, there has been a government push for encouragement of philanthropy. Not just local philanthropy, but regional philanthropy as well. And there has been the term banded about, about Singapore being a philanthropy hub frequently actually within the last year or two.

[00:50:13] And so, which is why the time is ripe for an initiative like ACF right now. In addition to that ACF is backed by individuals who know what they're doing, who have been doing this for many decades. There's no other group of people in my mind who are more equipped, who have the credibility to be able to really pursue this and to really help make this happen.

[00:50:34] Because you see, I think in terms of the Singapore story, it has very much been Singapore needing a lot of foreign. Investment, right? And so a lot of that initiatives, incentives to draw in foreign capital and never capital moving out. So an initiative like ACF Asia Community Foundation would never be an initiative that is started by the government.

[00:50:55] It would never be because what ACF is trying to do, it really is trying to channel some of that wealth out into the region, right? So it would take private actors. Coming together to do this. And to me, the people, the individuals whom I'm working with right now, no better group of people to work with to get this started and yeah. And to push it off. 

[00:51:14] Lara Quie: Wow, thank you for your work in this space. I'm sure the work from all of this money raised, through the philanthropy is having a huge impact on people's lives. Especially in the region in Southeast Asia. And it's just such a journey that you've been on.

[00:51:30] Where would be the best place for listeners to connect with you if they wish to learn more about you and the ACF and philanthropy in general? 

[00:51:39] Jia Xian Seow: LinkedIn is definitely wonderful place to reach out. I'm quite active there on LinkedIn. You can also find out more about ACF on its website and feel free to write into our email address, which is Hello@ACF.org. 

[00:51:53] We are still in a startup phase. So ironically, I am again in another startup, but this time it's a nonprofit startup. So, because we are a lean team, do please give us some time also to respond to any inquiries, but yes, feel free to reach out to me on linkedIn. 

[00:52:08] Lara Quie: So yes, Jiaxian thank you so much for your time today. 

[00:52:12] It was great to have you on the show.

[00:52:13] Jia Xian Seow: Thank you so much, Lara, for having me.  Thank you.