Key Lessons for Lawyers with Adam Freeman, Former Partner at Linklaters - Episode 7

This week in Episode 7 of the Legal Genie podcast, I am delighted to be joined by Adam Freeman, who recently stepped down after 15 years as a senior partner in the banking practice of the London office of Linklaters LLP. 

After 25 years as a hard-working finance lawyer advising on financing transactions principally relating to acquisitions, Adam decided that he was ready to find more of a balance in his life and prioritize his health and wellbeing. 

Since September 2019 he has also been part-time Chairman of the Bransford Trust and of Lateral Life, an exclusive travel design business, of which he has been a fan since taking a sabbatical trip with his family in 2013. 

We discuss Adam’s 10 KEY LESSONS for lawyers that he put in a LinkedIn post on his retirement:
 
 1. Culture is not what you preach, it is what you tolerate.
 2. Always see the funny side.
 3. Earn your partnership every day.
 4. Even clever lawyers need decisive leaders.
 5. Be honest with yourself and each other: strengths and weaknesses.
 6. Each cog is important: spend time talking to everyone in the firm.
 7. Don't be afraid to push outside your comfort zone.
 8. Be the best version of yourself that you can be.
 9. Prepare, prepare, prepare.
 10. Celebrate all successes, however small.

We also talk about:

·         His journey into law. 

·         His path to partnership.

·         Having personal values.

·         Pushing yourself outside your comfort zone. 

·         His advice for young lawyers.

·         His new life after law.

Learn more about Adam Freeman:

·         E-mail: Adam@adamfreeman.net

·         Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-freeman-393b099/

·         http://www.laterallife.com/

·         http://www.bransfordtrust.org/

 Also:

If you liked this episode, please do rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

Look out for the next episode coming next week and have a great day.

You can connect with Lara:

·         on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie

·         Via her Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

·         Or if you have a question or guest idea please do drop Lara a line at Lara@LaraQAssociates.com

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Legal Genie Podcast Episode 7 with Adam Freeman

[00:00:00] Lara Quie: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Legal Genie Podcast with me, Lara Quie. Why am I the Legal Genie? Because I bring out the magic in you and help you make your wishes come true. I practiced as a corporate lawyer in London for a number of years before leaving the law to become an entrepreneur and co-founder of a successful designer kitchen business. Upon selling the business 10 years ago, and moving to Asia, I moved back into law, but not as a lawyer. 

[00:00:40] Most recently, I was Asia Pacific head of business development for a leading international law firm. Due to an unexpected life event in 2020, I discovered the power of executive coaching and recently launched Lara Q Associates, a boutique consultancy, which enables me to work with fun and inspiring people across the [00:01:00] globe.

[00:01:01] This podcast explores the fascinating world of the legal ecosystem and the people within it. From rainmakers at global elite firms to trainees, just starting to get their feet wet from Queen's counsel, barristers, in-house counsel and the judiciary. To legal tech, innovators, pricing specialists, HR managers, business development and marketing professionals, legal headhunters, and everyone else who is a mover and shaker in this space.

[00:01:30] My goal is to help you see your world differently. What insights can you gain from hearing others share their experiences? What action can you take as a result? I hope that you will be inspired and learn a lot from this episode, please enjoy the conversation.

[00:01:51] Hello and welcome to Episode Seven of the Legal Genie podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. Today, I'm delighted to be [00:02:00] joined by Adam Freeman. Last month, Adam became a charity trustee of the Bransford Trust. When he stepped down after 15 years as a senior partner in the banking practice of the London office of global elite firm, Linklaters LLP.

[00:02:15] After 25 years as a hardworking finance lawyer, advising on financing transactions, principally relating to acquisitions, Adam decided that he was ready to find more of a balance in his life and prioritize his health and well-being. Since September 2019, he's also been part time chairman of Lateral Life, an exclusive travel design business of which he's been a fan since taking a sabbatical trip with his family in 2013.

[00:02:42] It’s great to have you on the Legal Genie podcast, Adam, thank you so much for being here. 

[00:02:48] Adam Freeman: [00:02:48] Thank you very much for having me. 

[00:02:49] Lara Quie: [00:02:49] It's a big change for you after 15 years at Linklaters and the reason I invited you to be on the show today is very much to do with a [00:03:00] fantastic post you did on the day, I think ,it must've been, that you actually stepped down.

[00:03:05] And I'm going to actually read it because I just think it's wonderful. You talked about, how you're going to miss it, et cetera. But you said, "Before I left, I shared with all the partners at the firm, the 10 key lessons I learned while I was at Linklaters. I thought I would share them again here for others to enjoy."

[00:03:24] And so you've got these 10 key lessons: "One, culture is not what you preach. It is what you tolerate. Two. Always see the funny side. Three, earn your partnership every day Four, even clever lawyers need decisive leaders. Five, be honest with yourself and each other strengths and weaknesses. Six, each cog is important. Spend time talking to everyone in the firm. Seven, don't be afraid to push outside your [00:04:00] comfort zone Eight, be the best version of yourself that you can be. Nine prepare 10, celebrate all successes, however small. So I'm really love those key lessons. So let's start with the first one, obviously, "culture is not what you preach. It's what you tolerate." Tell me a bit about why you've said that. 

[00:04:26] Adam Freeman: [00:04:26] I think there's a thread that runs through some of the others. Similar to the one with you reading that back to me now about be the best version of yourself that you can be where I think the longer that I was working at large law firms, the more. I was involved with lots of other organizations. I think personal integrity is very important. And I think that, there are lots of messages that are put on websites and said by people possibly slightly glibly sometimes to tick boxes. But for me, I think that if you really going to make the [00:05:00] organization and for yourself in terms of making the best version of yourself. You can be, you need to have a very clear view of what you will tolerate and what you won't tolerate. And I think there's lots of situations that one sees where people blur the lines of that tolerance for different reasons. Sometimes, they're fine margins and they're difficult decisions, but I think that ultimately you need to be very clear with yourself. And if you're leading an organization where those lines are, because I think as soon as you are in a situation where, what you practice is actually not what you're preaching, therein lies a sort of slippery road. I should add, by the way that both firms I worked for, Hogan Lovells and Linklaters, I'm very proud to say in the vast majority of cases, were always on the right side of that line, in my opinion. So please don't anyone think that this is some sort of coded criticism of my previous colleagues, it's not at all. It's just an observation that I didn't put these in any particular order, but it is probably the most important number one, because I think so much flows from it in terms of, [00:06:00] the respect you have for colleagues, how people respect each other, them trying to work together as a team to pull in the same direction to care for each other, support each other.

[00:06:10] And very quickly, culture is built over a very long time, but in my experience, it can be eroded and broken down very quickly by poor behavior. And that can be even low level. Behavior in terms of, colleagues trying to avoid helping each other on, on small things.

[00:06:27] But if you allow that to happen, I think very quickly it can spiral into sort of a further breakdown of the sort of fabric of the organization you work in. 

[00:06:38] Lara Quie: [00:06:38] Absolutely. And I liked the fact that one of these things that you refer to here is, each cog is important. Spend time talking to everyone in the firm, because that's about, that whole idea of culture and respect that you just mentioned for each person there. Because when you have got a hierarchical structure, like a partnership, inevitably there becomes a sort of [00:07:00] a power play. And certainly juniors, et cetera, can be looked down upon and they may in turn, look down upon support staff, et cetera.

[00:07:09] So there's a sort of culture that can develop if people are not there to be respectful of each other. 

[00:07:15] Adam Freeman: [00:07:15] And it's also my experience that I completely agree. And actually, one of the things I would say to especially all the sort of younger lawyers out there is that It's very clear as you get older in the profession that lawyers mimicking the behavior that they saw when they were growing up.

[00:07:29] I was extraordinary lucky that I was, my first role was trainee solicitor to Matthew Cotter who still has a senior role at Hogan Lovells. And I was very lucky that he applied an awful lot of the sort of culture that sits behind those 10 things are that you kindly read out.

[00:07:45] But equally, one of the things is to look, when you're in a junior position, look to the more senior people and decide, which are the ones that you actually admire, respect and you like and actually model yourself on those people. You don't always have to follow [00:08:00] bad examples, even though the danger is people see, to your point about hierarchical structure, if people see that someone's been successful by being pretty unpleasant, then actually the danger is they end up mimicking that behavior. And I think that's something that one sees. Unfortunately, various instances in the profession. So, I would encourage people to try and see the better examples and follow those, for sure.

[00:08:22] Lara Quie: [00:08:22] I think there's certainly been marked changes in the way that people are expected to behave in law firms and advances in employment law protection mean that people are generally better behaved than they ever were certainly in the eighties and nineties. Certainly, there were a lot of larger-than-life characters who would throw their weight around and because of their billings, their behavior was tolerated.

[00:08:46] And what you're referring to is a lot about mentoring, isn't it? And finding role models, people to be a mentor, whether they want to be your mentor or not, you can still look up to them. But if you are able to engage with them and for them to [00:09:00] become your mentor tell me a bit about, have you mentored others and what has that brought to the relationship?

[00:09:07] Adam Freeman: [00:09:07] Yeah, so I've I guess since I joined Linklaters really, I spent a lot of time mentoring and coaching others. I ran the leveraged finance team for about five years. And then before that, I was also a sort of group leader in the firm that ran a similar sized group of lawyers of, I guess around 50-ish.

[00:09:25] And actually that was one of the things that I, we'll, I'll miss terribly about not being in the firm actually is the, getting to know junior lawyers who come into the business, both via the trainee solicitor system at the firm, but also, who come in from outside and actually forming, close mentoring relationships with those people and helping them.

[00:09:45] Getting back to the one or the other things in the list to be the best version of themselves. So, trying to help them push through particular barriers, they may have come up against or issues they're facing or frustrations they have and trying to get them to reflect more on themselves.

[00:09:59] One of the great [00:10:00] Things that, that you see about lawyers is they spend so much time focusing on other people. So they spend rightly, a lot of their time trying to do the very best for their clients. And especially in city transactional work, that can be a pretty full day.

[00:10:13] Actually if you ask most lawyers how much time do you actually spend focusing on yourself and thinking about, what you want, what your goals are, what your strengths, your weaknesses are, how are you going to work on that? I think sometimes we all, and this definitely included me when I was a young lawyer.

[00:10:27] We don't really spend anywhere near enough time on that. And the danger is, I think in younger careers is that can lead to a sort of period of drift where but both you end up going in the direction. You might not want to yourself but also, I think there is a feeling. And a lot of this is about obviously, getting fulfillment from our career is you can feel that your so out, you don't have any control at all over your career.

[00:10:50] And that can feel very debilitating. It can feel like you're, you have no control over your environment. It's all. So yeah, it's something that I spent a lot of time doing and I [00:11:00] would, again, I would encourage people as you say Lara, to find mentors so that they can spend some time focusing on themselves.

[00:11:09] Lara Quie: [00:11:09] Yes, it's very much getting trapped in that rat race. Isn't it, that relentless treadmill where people really don't have time to think. It's just firefighting and, keeping on top of your emails. And now with clients badgering, you on text messages and WhatsApp and. That's very difficult to be always available, always responsive.

[00:11:31] And I think it's that 24-hour culture, which for lawyers who tend to be characteristically urgent, it doesn't help by having this 24-hour culture, especially in a global firm like Linklaters where other people are in different time zones.

[00:11:47] And so they are, firing emails at you at 4:00 PM their time, but that's still, midnight or to 3:00 AM or something crazy. And so, you just can't cope with the volume. Yeah. Of work that sort of [00:12:00] coming into your inbox on a regular basis. And as you say, the young people just end up in certain practice areas with certain people and things just happen.

[00:12:09] And I was actually talking to a lawyer today who said, Oh, I ended up in this this practice where I was making people bankrupt all the time. And it just got so depressing. And I didn't, I had to leave the law and I was thinking. How does that sort of happen to you? How would you just end up like that?

[00:12:25] But it's true. These things do happen. Sometimes choices are limited, and you end up in things. And so that's why I'm very passionate about young people stopping to really look at their lives. Have a clear plan about, where they're going so that they at least can take the right steps and not fumble blindly in the dark.  Until suddenly, they're retiring. And not really thinking about where they're going. 

[00:12:50] Adam Freeman: [00:12:50] Other thing actually that I reflected on in later years, what I think is very hard. This might sound very old, isn't it? But. When I started in practice in the mid-nineties, that obviously the [00:13:00] work now there were no emails, I know that'll shock an awful lot of people on this podcast. But one of the things I think is an immense challenge for lawyers. And this sort of generation is this battle to find the space to slow down or obviously I don't have as much original thoughts out of the thinking. Fast thinking, slow sort of moniker but it is true that is a real. battle and something that I think everyone needs to try and spend time working out h ow they can make that work for themselves.

[00:13:27] Because obviously, we're all about client service. We're about, speed of response. We're about answering emails and all that good stuff so that’s that very speedy, fast response, very quick turnaround, answer the email, but equally. As professionals and as lawyers, we're also paid to spend a lot of time thinking deeply and around subjects.

[00:13:48] And that obviously going back to what we're talking about before. That also includes yourself in terms of finding time to slow down and step back detach, and actually look at your career and where it's going. And that’s really [00:14:00] hard, but I think if you understand that you need to almost find that, but I used to refer to it as the motorway, the sort of slow lane and the fast lane.  That's something that I think people need to reflect on is how can they in their day, in their week find times to switch between the different lanes. So that obviously they’re fulfilling all the responsibilities of client service, but equally they're finding that time.  to think more deeply about topics on a particular transaction or to think more deeply about their own career. I think it's hard, but it's something that people need to fight to find the balance. 

[00:14:31] Lara Quie: [00:14:31] It is that it is about taking control, finding space, putting markers in your diary. So, you concentrate on things that are not just the transaction that you've got in hand. And the problem is that everyone goes, Oh I'll wait until there's a gap. Or, I'll have this under control. And the reality is that. There's never a good time, unless you're disciplined, and I think people really struggle with that because they always think that one day they'll have time. But the reality is that very rarely [00:15:00] comes along. So, what about this bit where you say even clever lawyers need decisive leaders? 

[00:15:08] Adam Freeman: [00:15:08] That was probably aimed very much at, some of my former partners probably, but what's obviously amazing at firms like Linklaters and Hogan Lovells is full of fascinating people.

[00:15:18] Very bright people, many of whom, much brighter than I'll ever be. And often, Issues that arise in relation to the partnership are mauled to death by intellectual analysis. And sometimes that can happen on transactions too. Although sometimes timetables tend to force people's minds a bit quicker.

[00:15:35] And so I think my point was that ultimately if law firms want to continue, especially the London based law firms continue to want to be successful. And they've been incredibly successful to date.  They have to be nimble, and they have to adapt to, ever changing legal landscapes and the markets which they serve.

[00:15:55] And actually. Sometimes spending a long time over analyzing [00:16:00] an issue where clearly, we're all lawyers, right? We were taught to see both sides, argue both sides, see their general rule, arguable the exceptions, that's what we do for a living. We're very good at it, but ultimately, I think the role of key leaders is they need to make a decision, but they also need to carry people with them. So, forming consensus and getting people that even though to, may have started on the wrong side of the argument to accept that actually it's the best thing for the firm. And again, I think that’s hard and it’s a difficult skill, but.

[00:16:30] That consensus for me is important. And clearly those skills are learned on transactions too. In a negotiation, you've got to try and bring people with you. There's no point in just stamping your feet and say, no.  You need to find compromise in the middle ground.

[00:16:43] So that's really what it was. And I think, 

[00:16:46] Lara Quie: [00:16:46] yes, I think in a partnership model where global firms like Linklaters with several hundreds and some firms have thousands of partners become so unwieldy because at the end of the day originally these were very small [00:17:00] businesses where you were literally a partnership and you'd sit in a room together and, discuss and agree  and go with consensus.

[00:17:06] But with lawyers wanting evidence. Being highly skeptical wanting to argue their points and then basically facing analysis paralysis. And trying to get everyone on board is very difficult. And that's why change is very slow to happen in law firms, because how do you convince everybody, all these very intelligent people that this is the right way forward. Somebody's always going to say no   I don't agree. And so you're going to get disgruntled people no matter what. And so, it's a very difficult environment especially because of competing interests, where you've got so many different practice areas, so many different offices, everybody has their own agenda.

[00:17:46] And so trying to please everybody all the time is basically impossible. Isn't it? Oh dear. What about this? Be honest with yourself and each other strengths and weaknesses. [00:18:00] 

[00:18:01] Adam Freeman: [00:18:01] My experience is that the most successful people in those organizations, in which I've worked. And again, but in other professional services firms that I've encountered in, and also clients particularly banks and private equity firms, the people I interacted with its setting rules.

[00:18:19] And this debate goes back to thinking about being authentic to yourself, but setting very clear rules for yourself and, abiding by them. So, you're right. It's very easy in a day to say, Oh I'm not going to go to the gym today, or I'm not going to. Eat the right foods today, or I'm not going to hydrate.

[00:18:38] I wish someone had told me to drink more water than I was when I was younger. It's definitely helped me in later years, or I just can’t quite find that 15 minutes to look on that website and see what's going on, that market trend or ring that client, or, do this personal study that I've got to do.

[00:18:55] And I think that. Being very honest with yourself and that [00:19:00] includes, where you're strong, where you're weak, is really important. I remember when I was a young lawyer the then senior part of Hogan Lovells, Kevin Taylor, who's an incredibly impressive guy, gave us a speech.

[00:19:10] We just stayed me to this day about constantly ratcheting up your performance. So always trying to get better every day. And I hated public speaking when I was younger. And his advice at that point was well, go and do more of it then, to all of us go and face up to your fear.

[00:19:24] And this a bit goes to pushing yourself outside your comfort zone. And again, whilst. Everyone needs to have that courage for themselves. Because again, in all my experience, that's when you learn the most is when you are forcing yourself beyond where you feel the most comfortable. And having that personal discipline to address all of these issues and to try and get better is the only way that you continue to improve, as an individual and how you will have success in in your particular chosen field. 

[00:19:55] Lara Quie: [00:19:55] Absolutely. And there's a lot of emphasis at the moment on self-awareness for [00:20:00] leaders and leaders, setting example and being the people to inspire a following. And it's about. Acknowledging that you don't know everything and that you should be a lifelong learner. And definitely the idea of growth through stepping outside your comfort zone is really essential. And there's a lot of focus on that these days, in terms of mindset and being a lifelong learner and, we’re all having exceedingly long careers.

[00:20:25] So being able to reinvent yourself and not just be stuck saying, oh this is what I do. And this is the end of it. Yes. Personally, every day I'm stepping outside my comfort zone and although initially it is uncomfortable, which is obviously its name, but that is where you feel much more satisfaction actually.

[00:20:44] And I too, I'm really not a public speaker. I don't enjoy it. But again, unless you practice these things, you will not just automatically be better at it. And it's a necessary evil, so it's good to practice. Yeah. Yes. [00:21:00] What about prepare. I feel there's a story there was there something that particularly reminded you to put that one in?

[00:21:10] Adam Freeman: [00:21:10] So I remember once Matthew and I were going through a negotiation with Clifford Chance and Mark Campbell, who was the then very senior bank lawyer and became head of banking and very nice guy. And he kindly didn't put me to the sword too much that day, but Matthew had to leave to go to another negotiation. I was left as this pretty junior associate. Trying to negotiate this document with a fairly senior banker from Barclays, as I recall and the only thing that I could do that was in my control was to have spent hours going over all of the detail of what we were going to talk about and reading round it and understanding every point.

[00:21:44] Clearly, I never had the same experience as Mark and I couldn't match it, but what I could do is know every part of the document backwards. And know all of the detail and that's. That gave me at least the confidence to not run out of the room and think, Oh, this is terrible. And I would say that's the same for [00:22:00] lots of situations. For me, it's also true if you're, I'm sure you find this in some of the coaching you do, Lara, as well, which is the more you invest in preparing for conversations with people, either, or they're difficult conversations where I was managing people, taking the time to prepare thinking, language is so important and spending time to think about  which language you're gonna use, how you're gonna raise points. How are you going to get there is so important. So, I think it applies both to the sort of black letter law and practice that we do and to give people the confidence to step to the next level beyond their comfort zone is just spend more time preparing so you feel confident and nine times out of 10, you'll probably only use a third of everything you prepared but it gives you the confidence and much better to be in that position then. And I've seen it many times where people have tried to wing it and they've not done any preparation and look terrible. And that's, that's just not the way.

[00:22:55] So I think, again, that's part of the personal discipline of preparation is just so [00:23:00] important to any, anything that we do as professionals. I think. 

[00:23:04] Lara Quie: [00:23:04] Definitely. And I love the one that you put, celebrate all successes, however, small.

[00:23:11] Adam Freeman: [00:23:11] Yeah. That's because sometimes as you say earlier when you could get into the sort of monotony of transaction after transaction and on deals and what have you. And I think that's something that happened more when I was a more junior lawyer where we'd have. No, we'd finished transactions. And then there'd be a sort of celebration lunch, or there'd be something, whether it would at least be a sort of marking of that. And I think sometimes these days with the sort of 24 seven culture of emails and what have you, sometimes we miss that, and successes are really important.

[00:23:41] That’s why, if you want a sustainable career and you want to keep going in the role you need to enjoy what you do and you need to find the successes help you thrive in that environment. So, I think it's really important that people do stop and, remember that they've achieved something, they’ve drafted their first [00:24:00] whatever document or they've done their first negotiation, or they've completed their first deal. 

[00:24:04] Lara Quie: [00:24:04] Absolutely. It goes to work hard, play hard and certainly in finance, my mother used to be an investment banker she remembers partying with the partners from Linklaters whenever you guys had closed a deal.  I think it's right. You have to Take the time to acknowledge those successes too, to reflect on how much you've grown and also to be reasonable with yourself. I think a lot of people are very perfectionist and they set standards that are quite clearly unachievable for their level. And so it's always good to keep really good perspective because you mentioned how, you prepared, but the truth is that the more experienced partner from the other firm, looking at, you will have noticed and seen, your stage that you were at and they can't expect, partner level, experience and input. And therefore, you are preparing in that way. Was to show that you've done everything [00:25:00] possible for your level in terms of the effort that you could make, but you can't of course magic experience out of nowhere, but it's that it's the reasonableness and just doing your best.

[00:25:11] And I think that's what it's about, taking pride in yourself and to put your best foot forward. But at the same time being reasonable with, what can be expected. 

[00:25:21] Adam Freeman: [00:25:21] And, going back to the example with Mark Campbell and some of the discussion we've had about being authentic. I think the temptation for some, as you say, in the hierarchical profession of ours some partners would have taken utterly taken advantage of me in that situation. And the question I think for people is. Is that really the right thing to do? And actually, it's a long profession.

[00:25:43] What goes around, comes around, we tend to work in fairly small communities. And whilst there's no doubt, Mark did a fantastic job for his client. He did it in a completely classy way and didn't in any way, bully or harass or anything to me. And I think that's.

[00:25:59] We all have [00:26:00] these, the situations that arise in our career where there's those choices about how we behave. And I think, again, going back to the first point about culture it's really important that you, as an individual decide how you want to set out your stall and how you want to operate.

[00:26:13] And hopefully people will reflect on my career hoping I lived up to Mark's example. 

[00:26:19] Lara Quie: [00:26:19] Yes, that's right. It's about having personal values, isn't it?  And if you find yourself in a situation where your values are not aligning, having the self-confidence to speak up, or just move on, say, I'm not going to tolerate this, and I shall go elsewhere.   These are fantastic 10 key lessons and I really love the way that you've shared them. And I really hope that these are going to be something that whoever read your posts and everyone at the firm really, values and learns from.

[00:26:45] But I'm going to go backwards again.  I'd love to know about your path into law. What was your inspiration to become a lawyer? 

[00:26:54] Adam Freeman: [00:26:54] So I think I'm one of those slightly strange people.  As far as I can remember, I wanted to be a lawyer. I don't know where [00:27:00] that came from. There's no history of law in my family. At all, maybe it was watching too many crime dramas on TV as a small child. Certainly, from about the age of 10 or 11 that's what I wanted to do. And almost all my choices in terms of which O levels I studied, which A- levels I studied was all about, becoming a solicitor.

[00:27:18] I clearly had no idea what leveraged finance was  thank goodness. But I don't really know where the inspiration came from, but once it had taken hold, it was my aim.  

[00:27:25] Lara Quie: [00:27:25] And then you went to the college of law in Chester. So that must have been quite a fun time. 

[00:27:30] Adam Freeman: [00:27:30] It's  the sort of last hurrah before people realize that they're going to work. So, there's quite a lot of partying that's for sure. 

[00:27:37] Lara Quie: [00:27:37] Absolutely. And they've since called themselves the university of law, which is quite posh.  Tell me a bit about Your path to partnership. What qualities did you think you had to show then to be a partner? And do you see any differences in making it to partnership now in 2021? 

[00:27:57] Adam Freeman: [00:27:57] I think part of any partnership [00:28:00] track is also luck and timing. So, as I said before I was Matthew Costas. His training was my first role when I got to Hogan Lovells. I hadn't even heard of a management buyout or private equity or anything sat with Matthew. I had a fantastic time. And that was by chance. I didn't choose to sit with him. I was put with him. So that was luck. Then the. Private equity industry was pretty nascent in those days, but then obviously it has exploded hugely in terms of the size of funds, the deals that get done. Linklaters weren't doing, leverage deals back then because they were too small.

[00:28:35] And so that wouldn't have led my career there. So there was definitely an element of, timing and luck to these things. So I don't think people should underestimate there is a bit of that. You can obviously. As a Gary player, I think that the more I practice the luckier I get, there's definitely part of that, but no way did I realize that private equity was going to become what it has become.

[00:28:53] And I was just lucky to hold onto the coat tails and enjoy the ride. But yeah, what you can do is control what you can control as an individual. [00:29:00] So I became fascinated by the industry and spent an awful lot of time with clients and reading, trying to learn as much as I could about what I was doing.

[00:29:10] And I say that to all the junior lawyers who I worked with it, especially the trainees at Linklaters is you need to find that thing that, you're passionate about and that you're really interested in because. That's what drives you in, when you do have spare moments in what is a busy week to have conversations with clients to read up around, read around topics and to spend the time doing it.

[00:29:31] So for sure hard work and understanding the commercial backdrop to the area of operating was hugely important to me, I think. And then also looking back, I was slightly naive in that I. Obviously thought I knew far more than I did when I was a sort of relatively senior associate and thought that I could negotiate against the likes of Mark Campbell as the and looking back, that was ridiculous.

[00:29:55] But at the time I was probably slightly overly confident about my own abilities [00:30:00] and that, that led to the opportunity to become partner. But I think ultimately, I think it's. Which is slightly boring answer, but it's true is it's that it's the hard work of the prepare prepare, we talked about, which is, the more, if you're going to go into a negotiation, then your clients are going to want you on their side and they're going to respect you.

[00:30:18] You need to understand their industry, what they're trying to achieve, what their issues are. And that's just a lot of hard work. 

[00:30:25] Lara Quie: [00:30:25] Yeah, it's very much about understanding the commercial realities from their side of the table. And those conversations with the client. Isn't it? 

[00:30:32] Adam Freeman: [00:30:32] And I think to answer the second question, I think those things are still true today. I think that the nuts and bolts of what we do for a living is, we are. Seeking solutions for our clients. And there's no way you can do that unless, you know, where your clients are coming from, their business, the markets they operate in.

[00:30:51] And all of the legal issues that, surrounding them. So, I think that's actually very similar. What is true clearly is it takes a lot longer to become a [00:31:00] partner. Now, when one of the larger firms than it did when I was a junior lawyer. So, I think, If that's something you're pursuing you clearly need to set out that, going back to our chocolate thing about discipline and choices about your resilience is going to be important to that.

[00:31:15] Finding ways to cope with pressure over a sustained period of time is important because it's that it's a long road to get to partnership. 

[00:31:24] Lara Quie: [00:31:24] It definitely is a long road. And as you said, an element of luck definitely needs to be in there as well. But if we're talking about someone say of counsels and very senior associate looking at partnership now. What do you suggest in terms of what can they do to increase their chances perhaps in terms of visibility and politics? 

[00:31:46]Adam Freeman: [00:31:46] One of the most simple ways to answer that question is, ultimately in all the firms that I've worked in and seen operate in my career is if people build client followings where [00:32:00] clients  start to see them as a trusted advisor and ring them up with work that is a pretty good way of people starting to be seen very quickly as a partner, because ultimately,  that is the job of a partner is to bring in work for the firm. There's lots of other, ancillary roles around that, but ultimately that's the principal role. And I think sometimes people can get too focused on the internal operations of the firm and the politics and trying to impress X, Y, and Z, or raise their profile. And all of that's important clearly, because going back to the point about luck and timing. You need to make sure that people within the organization are aware of what you're doing, and you form the right relationships. The, I think the bottom line is the external client following and client relationships are more important in a way because that's where most people within the organization will sit up and take notice of your performance because that drives revenue and drives the sort of improvement in the business of the firm. So, I [00:33:00] think it's a balance. I think you can't have one without the other. You definitely need the, if you just spend all of your time on clients, you can end up losing the support of your colleagues or people, not even knowing what you're doing.

[00:33:08] Especially if you 're not made partner. So, it's definitely a balance. 

[00:33:11] Lara Quie: [00:33:11] What other advice have you got for, more junior lawyers these days in terms of how they can best prepare for a long-term career in a firm?  

[00:33:20] Adam Freeman: [00:33:20] I think it took me. Quite a long time when I was a junior lawyer to be honest with myself about what I was good at and what I wasn't good at, and also what I needed to sustain myself in practice. And so I think spending that time, which we talked about earlier in being very clear with yourself about what it is that you need to operate at a sort of elite level of performance for, a sustained period of time is really important because that's, that's essentially what organizations like the ones I worked for require.

[00:33:58] And that starts with [00:34:00] drinking enough water, getting enough, sleep, eating properly, exercising, no one really was talking about that stuff when I got to the city in the mid-nineties, your physical.  health and wellbeing is vital because it will be the same as, an athlete delivering themselves to the track in a position where they can perform.

[00:34:16] That's exactly the same for us in what we do as professionals. If you're not delivering yourself at your desk in a position where you can perform, at a high level over a long period of time, you're going to struggle. And that's even before you start doing the actual job, it's just, physical resilience and mental resilience.

[00:34:33] And of course, there's no doubt that in going back to the times of the Greeks  that, physical health is clearly very important to your mental health and mental performance. I think that’s some need to really focus on, so have some, difficult conversations with yourself about, What it is, that's important to you and where you're going to draw the line.

[00:34:49] There’s no doubt that when I was a younger lawyer, I probably talking about celebrating successes was we drank too much alcohol. And whilst that can feel, great at the time. And you can be with all the team that [00:35:00] you've been working with and whatever, but actually, is that sustainable over a long period of time in terms of your performance, you don't sleep as well. you're tired you're irritable, you eat, rubbish food, et cetera, et cetera. I'm not saying its people have to draw their lines about where those boundaries are. But that puts you in a position where you're able to then sustain the performance because I think it's a hard career.

[00:35:23] There's a lot of demands on your time. There's a lot of. Yeah. Going back to that, thinking fast, thinking slow, you're under a lot of pressure. A lot of that time on emails, there's a lot of information to assimilate and, putting yourself in a position where your physical performances is in, at that point.

[00:35:40] That is really important. And then as I say, just to repeat myself, sorry, but you've got really find something that you're interested in. It's a long career. It can be hard, there can be all nights, there can be weekends, if you don't really like something you don't really care about.

[00:35:55] It is really hard to sustain that over a long period. But I think I was very lucky [00:36:00] that, I found. By chance, the private equity industry and syndicated lending and found it very interesting and continue to, by the way, I still, I've not lost my interest in it, but that's really important because that's the thing that will help you, in a spare 15 minutes in a spare half an hour to read more, speak to clients more and carry-on learning.

[00:36:19] And ultimately, as you say, continual learning is so important to what we do as a job. 

[00:36:25] Lara Quie: [00:36:25] So it sounds like mastery of your craft and passion for your craft is the essence. But I do feel that many lawyers aren't that passionate about their practice area, they've fallen into it because of the firm that they were in, in the path and, whether there was an opportunity.

[00:36:42] So imagine if someone's 30 years old and they're in something that they're not loving. What's your advice to them? Is it too late to change? What could they do? 

[00:36:55] Adam Freeman: [00:36:55] Yeah, so I'm not gonna fall into the trap as a sort of 50-year-old guy who has been a [00:37:00] partner at a magic circle law firm, who's, been very well paid for a long time to suddenly say it's easy just to walk away from something because clearly it isn't.

[00:37:07] These are very hard. Decisions. Even for me to step away, was not easy for sure.  Even though I've been lucky to have had such a long career. But I do think that we all, as individuals have to make decisions about ultimately what's important to us and what sustains us and, I know you and I were talking just before we started the podcast about, unfortunately we both had cancer. And I certainly don't wish that on anyone to make one reflect on our life, but it is true that, it's not a rehearsal.  We get one go at this life. We get one opportunity to do it. And if you are deeply unhappy in what you're doing, then I think you really need to ask yourself whether that's going to be good for you. It's going to be good for your family going to be good for you, the people around you. And maybe the right answer is not to to go cold turkey because clearly [00:38:00] that has its risks of just walking out. That's not good for anyone. I don't think but start, going back to this point about discipline.

[00:38:06] Start to plan how you're going to extract yourself from that. Look at what the alternative that be retraining or looking at different pathways or what have you. But we all have these and equally, as I say, that goes down to that point about when you get up in the morning about.

[00:38:21] No, whether you're going to go to the gym or eat healthily, or what have you, that they're all choices that each of us, as an individual has to make, and we all have to be comfortable with those decisions. And I get it that changing a career at that point is really hard, but if you're being honest with yourself about your happiness then you know, maybe it's the time to start properly planning a strategy as to how you're going to get out. 

[00:38:47] Lara Quie: [00:38:47] Yes. I think that lots of people don't realize how many years of work they have left. And that actually at 30 or 40, you could still have another 20, 30 years, 40 [00:39:00] years. I heard about someone whose father's 91 who still busy working. So in the scheme of things, once you get a bit of perspective and you start to really think, okay, Can I do this for the next 50 years? And if the answer is no, it's time to start thinking about an exit strategy. 

[00:39:18] Adam Freeman: [00:39:18] I should have even as a 50-year-old, shortly to be 51, I'm hoping that there’s still life in the old dog yet in terms of, I'm trying to find, the next chapter in different careers in in my life.

[00:39:28] And obviously with, people living longer, I think. Yeah. People having different careers and different, doing different things at different speeds is also going to be is going to be important. Yeah, I'm certainly hoping that there's lots of exciting things to continue to work on for me.

[00:39:42] Lara Quie: [00:39:42] Yes. It sounds like there already are. You're involved in two very different things. So tell us about your role at Lateral Life and the sabbatical that you went on that meant that you became a lifelong fan. 

[00:39:55] Adam Freeman: [00:39:55] Yeah, so Lateral Life is run by a fascinating guy called Nick Matthews who if anyone wants to have [00:40:00] a very entertaining time planning a holiday.

[00:40:01] He's the guy to speak to. Yeah, one of the things that still exists in law firms like Linklaters is after you've been a partner for 10 years, you can take a bit of time off  to recharge the batteries and have a sabbatical. So we ended up actually as a family going to the jungle in Borneo to see orangutans as part of the trip and also to the rainforest in Ecuador, neither of which I had any intention of doing before I started speaking to Nick. So he was great at pushing you to have more adventures, but equally, as a lawyer, he's also very good at the nuts and bolts.

[00:40:31] So we obviously we spend all of our time crossing T's and dotting I's and making sure there's a clear sort of checklist to complete the transaction and. He does that too. So we'd become mates as a result of that. And recently the former chairman of the business stepped down and he very kindly asked me to to help him.

[00:40:49] So I'm helping you on that, which has obviously been an interesting time to do that, given COVID But hopefully especially given the news here in the UK yesterday, that, that industry was starting to open up [00:41:00] again as the as the policy. But it's very different to what I've done before, but equally it's something that I feel passionately about because I think he's a very interesting guy and offers something that lots of people don't offer.

[00:41:11] Lara Quie: [00:41:11] Right now in lockdown most people are planning, trips and dreaming about amazing adventures that they can have and saving the money as well, because they haven't been on a trip for a couple of years. So there'll be exploding, ready to go and do something absolutely fantastic. Although right now it's tough times for the travel industry. I think that is going to absolutely bounce back when people are, let out of their cage and they're going to be wanting to travel all over. So I'm sure that you're going to be busy doing that. But what about Bransford Trust and your involvement in that and what it does? 

[00:41:46] Adam Freeman: [00:41:46] Yeah. So that's actually, it's interesting. You were talking about the person who was 90, who continues to work.  That was actually set up by my wife's father who's  an entrepreneur, he set up a business back in the seventies that he sold about 10 years ago.

[00:41:58] And he's based in Worcester [00:42:00] here in the UK, and he set up a charitable foundation, essentially to try and give back to. Particularly deserving causes in and around Worcester. But he at 83 continues to be involved in all sorts of things. Is it, he's an investor in a tech business. I'm not entirely sure. He even knows quite what the tech does, but he's still fascinated by it. So again, that goes to. The point we were talking about, which is to find something that, you're interested in and passionate about and keep going. And he is, he's more energized now than I think he was 10 years ago.

[00:42:30] And that's something that I think is important for all of us, is to keep,  the fires burning, especially mentally  to have those challenges of new things to do. But I also am having lots of conversations with people at the moment about other charitable situations, because I think that obviously I've been incredibly lucky in my career to, to be very well paid and to have enjoyed the life I have, but actually it feels like now I've got some more time back. Hopefully I can give more to charitable situations and to give back. And so that's the, that one's close to home because it's related to [00:43:00] family, but that's the start of a journey to more charitable giving. Certainly, for me. 

[00:43:04] Lara Quie: [00:43:04] And so what do you see for your own future? What are you excited about now? 

[00:43:08] Adam Freeman: [00:43:08] I started learning Spanish, so that's something I've wanted to do for 20 years, which I've never got around to doing. So that's again, that's pushing me outside my comfort zone with my terrible Spanish pronunciation.

[00:43:18] And again, that's one of those things where you, if you think about the enormity of learning a language, you probably would never start, but you just have to take small steps. So definitely doing a few things that I've wanted to do that I haven't had time to do. And then I'm spending a lot of time.

[00:43:33] Including yourself, having fascinating conversations with lots and lots of people, some of it actually via that LinkedIn post that you picked up on and talking to lots of different people, both in the charitable sector, but also the sort of business sector too about potential opportunities to do different things.

[00:43:51] I think. Coaching mentoring is definitely parts of it. So, investing in people, because that's something that I've always really enjoyed. And I know you were involved in it too, Lara, so you'll [00:44:00] appreciate that. But at the moment I'm just spending a lot of time talking to lots of people and getting lots of ideas.

[00:44:06] Maybe you'll have to check back in with me in a year's time and I can tell you exactly where I've ended up. Cause at the moment I don't really have a fixed plan. 

[00:44:12] Lara Quie: [00:44:12] Yeah, it's all still very new. That you're only left last month. I imagine there's going to be a ton of opportunities coming away. And so, is LinkedIn the best place for people to reach out to you if they want to connect? 

[00:44:25] Adam Freeman: [00:44:25] Yeah, sure. Or my personal email is easy to remember. It's Adam@adamfreeman.net. So please, if anyone wants to get in touch please do. 

[00:44:31] Lara Quie: [00:44:31] Thank you so much for all your time   today, Adam Freeman and very best of luck for your future. 

[00:44:37] Adam Freeman: [00:44:37] Thanks very much Lara, thanks for having me. 

[00:44:39] Lara Quie: [00:44:39] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode of the Legal Genie podcast, please go to Apple podcasts, and give it a rating and review to help others find it. Please do subscribe so that you don't miss the next exciting episode of the legal genie podcast. Thanks for listening. Have a magical week ahead. [00:45:00]