The Legal Genie Podcast

The Happy Solicitor with Jay Sahota - Episode 8

April 02, 2021 Lara Quie Season 1 Episode 8
The Legal Genie Podcast
The Happy Solicitor with Jay Sahota - Episode 8
Show Notes Transcript

This week on Episode 8 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie, I am delighted to have “the happy solicitor” himself, Jay Sahota, Owner and Senior Partner at Jarmans Solicitors.

Jay read law at Cambridge University and trained at Allen & Overy in London. After qualification, he specialized in dispute resolution and worked at several firms including city and regional firms such as Howrey, Lawrence Graham, Pittman’s, Fisher Meredith and DMB law. 

In 2015, he set up his own firm and later moved on to take over Jarmans Solicitors based in Sittingbourne in Kent. He has been there for the past three years managing and leading the firm. He enjoys complex litigation and the tactical challenges and variety of commercial practice.

Jay is a passionate networker and connector. He loves bringing people together and collaborating with others. In his spare time Jay enjoys doing magic and showing his children new tricks. 

Jay talks about the following topics:

·         The inspiration for his journey into law.

·         What he enjoyed at law school.

·         His time as a trainee at Allen & Overy.

·         The transition from corporate law into dispute resolution at Howree.

·         Moving from Lawrence Graham and The City to regional firm, Pittman’s in Reading.

·         The importance of having mentors.

·         Being a “networking king” and why he so enjoys it.

·         The challenges of being a business owner, especially during COVID times. 

·         His three “Hs”: honest, humble, and hungry.

·         Mental health and remaining connected at Jarmans.

·         Why he got into magic and why he still loves it. 

Learn more about Jay Sahota:

·         Connect with Jay on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaysahota/

·         His firm’s website: https://www.jarmanssolicitors.co.uk/

Also:

·         If you liked this episode, please do rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

·         Look out for the next episode coming next week and have a great day.

·         You can connect with Lara on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie

·         Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

·         If you have a question or guest idea please do drop Lara a line at Lara@LaraQAssociates.com

 

Support the show

Also:

· If you liked this episode, please rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

· Look out for the next episode coming soon.

You can connect with Lara Quie:

· On LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie

· Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

· Or Email at Lara@LaraQAssociates.com

Episode 8 of The Legal Genie Podcast with Jay Sahota

 [00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for joining me, Lara Quie, for the Legal Genie podcast. As a former corporate lawyer and APAC Head of Business Development for an international law firm, my mission with this podcast is to provide you with insights into the careers and lives of movers and shakers in the legal industry. 

[00:00:39] Mentors are hard to come by. So, by listening to these conversations, I hope that you will gain some valuable insights that will help you move forward in your career and personal life. I ask my guests to share their advice and experience with you. I ask them also to share about their mindset. As an executive coach, I [00:01:00] work one-on-one with lawyers to grow their practice and self-confidence. I also run mastermind groups and business development accelerators designed to bring like-minded people together, to learn, grow, and support each other. 

[00:01:13] If you'd like to learn more, please connect with me on LinkedIn or through my website. The details are in the show notes. Please rate and review the legal genie podcast to help us reach more people who may find it helpful. So, let's move on to this week's episode. I hope that you enjoy the conversation.   

[00:01:35] Lara Quie: [00:01:35] Hello, and welcome to episode eight of the Legal Genie podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. I'm delighted to have with me today, the "happy solicitor", Jay Sahota, Owner and Senior Partner at Jarmans Solicitors. Jay read Law at Cambridge University and trained at Allen and Overy in London. After qualification, he specialized in dispute resolution and worked at several firms, including city and [00:02:00] regional firms, such as Lawrence Graham, Pittman's, Fisher Meredith and DMB law. In 2015, he set up his own firm and later moved on to takeover Jarmans solicitors based in Sittingbourne in Kent. He's been there for the past three years, managing and leading the firm.

[00:02:16] He enjoys complex litigation and the tactical challenges and variety of commercial practice. Jay is a passionate networker and connector. He loves bringing people together and collaborating with others. In his spare time, jay enjoys doing magic and showing his children new tricks. So, welcome to the podcast, Jay, you definitely sound very happy to me  if you're good at tricks and magic.

[00:02:37] So, we'll have to talk about that later. But anyway, welcome to the show. I'd like to tell our listeners a little bit about your journey into law.

[00:02:45] Jay Sahota: [00:02:45] Good morning, Lara.  So, my journey into law, it all started really when my aunt and I do credit my aunt with this, I really do. I was talking to my aunt, I must've been about 15 and, you're that sort of stage, GCSEs and not quite sure what to do next. And she said, "Why don't you consider [00:03:00] the law?" Because at that time, I either wanted to be a male model I'm being facetious, obviously either wanted to be a weather forecaster or. You know, a spy or do magic full time. We'll come back to more magic later as you were saying, and she said, why don't you get serious think about it, why don't you become a lawyer because you're articulate and you like a good argument.  We used to have quite a bit of debate she's, I'm quite right-wing she's quite left-wing. So, I used to have political debates with her all the time.  She said you like formulating arguments. You like winning, you’re very competitive. Your attention to detail is very good.

[00:03:29] So, why not consider the law? Which I'd never really thought about at all. So, she planted the seed of the idea.  And she also very importantly said, why don't you consider applying to Oxbridge in due course? And nobody in my family had ever been to university.  So, again, it was not that it wasn't on my radar, but it wasn't high up the agenda.

[00:03:46] I just thought, well, we'll see what happens and move we'll slip into things in due course. So, she planted that seed as well, which I am hugely grateful for. And in-depth and I still remember that, that very conversation. So, that's when it all started really. And I then, I suppose [00:04:00] started doing things which would help me on that path.

[00:04:02] If you don't know you're doing, you're flailing about with different choices, then it's more difficult to get to your end goal. Whereas it's important a bit like a business plan, really. You start with your goal in mind and then you see where you want to end up and you lay the path in the paving stones to where you want it to go.

[00:04:15] Which is what I did. So, then I did my A-levels and GCSEs, and A-levels did quite well.  And then went off to, law school and then law at Cambridge and then qualified at Allen and Overy, which was, and the myths about the big law firms, as you know, Lara are true. So, it was, it was an interesting time. So, that’s where it all started. Basically. 

[00:04:33] Lara Quie: [00:04:33] It's interesting, isn't it? How sometimes these influences from family and friends as a young person do lead to these huge, life changing events. And certainly, my godfather, went to Oxford, and told me about the fantastic time he'd had at Christ Church. And I ended up going to his college purely because of that. So, yes, it’s really important to have good adult role models and people that can spot the [00:05:00] talent in you and suggest things like that and really elevate your expectations of yourself.  

[00:05:04] Jay Sahota: [00:05:04] I'm trying to do that with my daughter at the moment. I'm saying you're going to go to Trinity Hall, Cambridge, which is my alma mater. And you're got to be a Supreme Court judge. And she said, "Well, no, I want to be a hairdresser". So, that’s not really working at the moment, but we'll get there. 

[00:05:15] Lara Quie: [00:05:15] Yeah. Well, so, no pressure there, then you're not like a tiger dad or anything? Yeah. 

[00:05:20] Jay Sahota: [00:05:20] I'm very easy going, as you can tell, Lara. 

[00:05:25] Lara Quie: [00:05:25] And so, thinking about your time at law school, what did you enjoy most about that particular time? 

[00:05:31] Jay Sahota: [00:05:31] That's a really good question, actually. I liked the fact that it was, well, I'll tell you first what, I didn't like.  You only realize once you've left law school, that actually is not very practical.

[00:05:41] And that was my biggest gripe, really with what we were doing. It was very nice learning about the process and procedures, but you only really learn about the implementation and practice and thinking of the law, as you know, when you're there doing it.  And then the cogs start falling into place, don't they? Ah God, that's how it works. And that makes sense now. So, I really enjoyed, Practice [00:06:00] as soon as I was in practice, I loved it, particularly when I was at Pittman's, you know, I was at Allen and Overy, then Howrey, a big city law firm and then Pittman's. So, I loved seeing it all fall into place in the practice. Just fantastic. So, law school was a bit dry in that sense, but you couldn't really see where all the different jigsaw pieces were going to fit in.

[00:06:16] But what I really did enjoy was that entry into the world of law. I found it fascinating. I did enjoy the work. I mean, I'm naturally a hard worker, so, I enjoy it consuming lots and lots of information.  And it sounds really weird, but doing it without pressure, I never felt that much pressure at law school because you knew that, it was a conduit to other things later, but you had to be well, but you didn't have to do ridiculously well, it was, it's not like university where there's a lot more pressure, especially I was the first person in my family to go to uni.

[00:06:42] My aunts went to Polytechnic, and they did very well, actually they've done very well for themselves. Again, great role models. So, it’s almost that kind of middle ground where there isn't too much pressure. You can enjoy yourself.

[00:06:50] You can learn about the law. You consume all the information.  I was living at home, so, I quite enjoyed traveling into London. It was my first taste of traveling into London, commuting, back and forth. I really enjoyed that. And the [00:07:00] friendships I made have lasted until now. My best friend. Genevieve, I was friends with it at law school actually, and I still keep in touch with some of the people I met at law school.  Probably a bit more so, than I did at university, actually.  I've got some friends from university, but those I keep in touch with more. So, are those relationships I formed at law school, I really did enjoy it as it was fantastic time.

[00:07:20] It’s weird because if you don't feel the pressure often you do better. I didn't feel immense pressure at law school. I did really well. It was all fine, basically. So, it was a good, it was a good year. It flew by, as you know, all the time in the law flies by because you're always ridiculously busy. 

[00:07:35] Lara Quie: [00:07:35] Yes. And I'm just sort of thinking how ironic that it was called the legal practice course. It was like not very practical at all. I know what you mean.  I definitely enjoyed law school. It was a really, really fun time. And I actually had an extra year because I did the CPE conversion.

[00:07:53] It was a great time and I'm glad you enjoyed it as well.  But thinking about your move into the bright lights, big [00:08:00] City, it was a very exciting time. And you get to do four seats in different areas. I think actually you originally thought you might be a corporate lawyer, but then discovered dispute resolution. Tell me about your journey as a trainee. 

[00:08:14] Jay Sahota: [00:08:14] This is spooky, by the way, you know, a lot about me. It's a bit like when Dame Edna Jens up on her, I guess you're a bit of a Dame Edna aren't you really? 

[00:08:20] Lara Quie: [00:08:20] I'm the legal genie. Don't forget, 

[00:08:24] Jay Sahota: [00:08:24] You know things that only my mother knows this is very, um, yes, you're right. I did want to be corporate when I first started out so, much, so, that instead of the usual four seats, I did six, three of which were in corporate.  I'm trying to remember what they were C5 C12 and C8 if that makes any sense now, so, corporate deals, corporate restructuring, and then, I did   a corporate environment seat, which was interesting.  That's where I started.  And I hadn't even really thought about litigation, which is odd because if I went back to what my aunt said, presenting arguments, being argumentative, winning, et cetera, that litigation. So, even when I was doing my training contract, I was telling myself I [00:09:00] wanted to do corporate and qualify into corporate.

[00:09:02] Even though I really enjoyed litigation, it was really bizarre, but I did then, not many people know this. I did then qualify into corporate. and hated it absolutely hated it. I knew on day one that it really wasn't me at all, which is bizarre because I had enjoyed those bits of my training contract.

[00:09:17] But again, It's a bit like that law school practice conundrum training contract is a little bit different from when you qualify into the department. Training contracts, small parts of a big wheel, et cetera.  Then as soon as you qualify, here's all the work., I didn't want to sit there drafting board minutes forever, I mean, how boring can you possibly get?

[00:09:32] Really? So, I know on day one, I knew it wasn't the right choice. And then I very quickly realized that I wanted to move into litigation.  I've always, even in my firm, now we're talking about gut instinct all the time, where you are really important. So, follow your gut. Think about what you want to do in terms of where the germ of your interest lies, not just what other people are telling you, you enjoy.

[00:09:53] Because there was no vacancy for a litigator in my intake, if you like at Allen and Overy, I then moved to Howrey, [00:10:00] which was, I say was, because it went belly up. Unfortunately, not because of anything I did, by the way it was a US law firm, I loved that and I then worked across as a litigator and that was fantastic. Fantastic. Three and a half years there. 

[00:10:13] Lara Quie: [00:10:13] So, it sounds very good.  Following your gut instinct, because I think that there are many people who, train at a firm where, banking is the number one thing. And so, you sort of follow that path and you end up in it and you're thinking, Hmm, you know what?

[00:10:29] This is really, isn't quite the right fit for me, but they don't actually do anything about it. That's sort of 20 years later, they're still there. Going God, you know, I really do wish I had thought of something else.  And I do hear from quite a few, associates who say, “I'm curious about other areas, but I don't know how to get the experience.” What do you recommend to somebody?  Especially in Singapore, for example, you are very lucky to be able to do six different trainee seats.  The standard is obviously four in the UK, but here in Singapore, actually, I've [00:11:00] observed that many of the associates end up straight in, you know, straight in for corporate or straight in for litigation.

[00:11:06] You don't really get those taster experiences before you have to decide where you want to go. And I always think that's quite harsh because it's really good to have that practical experience first. So, yeah. If you're talking to say Singaporean lawyers, what would you recommend that they try to do to get a bit more experience in other areas?

[00:11:24] Jay Sahota: [00:11:24] Well, I've always said this actually, and it makes it all make sense to you. You don't know what you want to do unless you've done what you don't want to do. You really don't actually.  So, I would say to anybody, I’ll give you an example here. I had a chap here who was a paralegal at my firm had come in. This was about three years ago, Lara, just after I had taken over, and he came to me and said, I don't know what to do. He was brilliant. He was a really good commercial property lawyer in the making, very bright, very articulate. Everybody loved him, Clients loved him. And he said, what do you think I should do? And actually, said to him, don't stay at this firm, go to the City.

[00:11:56] Not because I don't want you here eventually, but in a way, get the [00:12:00] city thing out of your system. If you love it, you love it. If you don't, then you know that you don't love it. You can come back to a regional firm basically, but I don't want you being at my firm and hankering after the city forever.  Because you need to experience lots of different things to work out what really is right for you.

[00:12:14] So, my advice is not to be funneled in one particular direction, but to do as much as you can. To work out where your interest really lies in. I mean, you make a really good point because I know so, many lawyers, friends of mine, for example, who have just been stuck in a rut in their job, Oh, it's easy we'll just stay here and do this, do this thing.  As you say, 20, 30, 40 years later, divorce heart attack, haven't seen their kids for 40 years. And I didn't want to be one of those people really. So, I wanted to try it. Yes, I did. And that was my intention to see what it was like.  But you don't know what you want to do unless you've tried the whole array of things.

[00:12:47] So, my advice - top tip, if you like is to do as many things as you possibly can, even if it's not conventional, even if it breaks the mold, I mean, you gave my example, four seats and actually went to my senior partner and said, actually, can I do six? Because I want to [00:13:00] experience more and see what it's like I said, well, just you were saying, it's not standard.

[00:13:02] And I said, well, because not just because it's not standard doesn't mean it can't be done. Um, so, let's try it. And again, it's that thinking outside the box and being commercial about things to get that breadth of experience, to work out what you really want to do, don't be shoehorned into doing one particular thing.

[00:13:17] It's really important that you see the range of things before you work out what he wants to do, but then you might regret it later as I did with corporate litigation. 

[00:13:25] Lara Quie: [00:13:25] Exactly.  I actually did five seats as well.  So, I did four seats  as a trainee at Wilde Sapte, which is now Dentons, but then I went to the European Commission where they were doing a traineeship program and I did six months in European competition on their scheme. So, then I effectively have five seats and I had, the exposure to the competition law element that I hadn't received as a trainee because that hadn't been available to me. And then I had the right experience. You see? Cause then I was able to pivot into the, competition law arena. So, yes, it sounds like we are peas in a pod.

[00:14:01] [00:14:00] Anyway.  It was quite brave of you though at the time, to move from the city to a regional firm, like Pittman's in Reading.  And I'm sure that a lot of people were saying, Jay, you’re so, bright, you've been at A & O. The City's for you, why are you moving out to the sticks. What's going on with you? Did you feel like you had a bit of, negative, sentiment from some people? 

[00:14:23] Jay Sahota: [00:14:23] Yes, I did. To some extent, because I was, as you said, I was at A & O then Howrey then Lawrence Graham, all big firms.  So, some people did raise their furrows when I mentioned going out to Pittman's but the reason why is this - I realized that I wasn't particularly enjoying being in the City.

[00:14:36] Because I wasn't close enough to what was going on. And I always felt that I was a small cog in a big wheel that I wasn't really making my own decisions. I wasn't really running the cases.  And I was being told what to do instead of choosing what to do on particular cases and partners were saying, well, why don't you try this? Why don't you try that? Not always, but that was the general theme.  I didn't mind the hours. I'm one of the people who didn't mind, the hours, I didn't mind the hours, I work silly hours now running my own firm, [00:15:00] but that wasn't something that, I particularly minded even with a young family, I saw them now and again, I see them a lot more now, which is lovely actually. Obviously, I'll talk about my family later. Cause they make me "the happy solicitor", my family my God and, my work. Really.  Some people did say, well, why are you doing that? But I think I knew that I would get much more firsthand exposure to the sorts of cases that I wanted to work on.

[00:15:21] I knew that the work would be more varied.  We know this of the city don't we actually, sometimes the work isn't particularly varied, and I wanted varied work working for different sizes and types of clients. Again, you don't know what you want to do until you've done what you don't want to do.

[00:15:35] I wanted to try at the time, it probably wasn't my intention, but. In the cosmic way of things. This is what was happening in the background. I'm sure that he was doing it for this reason. I was almost trying all the different connotations of what I could do to end up where I was and getting lots of different experience in different sectors clients types of firm along the way.

[00:15:53] So, that I knew that where I landed up would be the right decision, if that makes sense. So, that's how I did it. And, I’ve never really worried about [00:16:00] what people say.  I think my adage has always been, if you worry too much about what other people say, you’re never listening to yourself and your family and your gut instinct and your soul, and you're just going to be unhappy basically.

[00:16:09] So, yes, I did get a bit of pushback, but you know what I had the most, it's still, I would say it was my most enjoyable period in the law at that time at Pittman's so, three years at Pittman's.  So, I had wonderful, wonderful cases. Acting for some really big clients.  I thought that I owned all the cases I was working on.

[00:16:23] I had tremendous victories. One year I think I had something like nine trials and won them all, it was all great.  I loved it. I might, I still have to credit my partner then Sue O'Brian, who was the head of litigation and equity department at Pittman's. And we still talk, we're still friends, actually.

[00:16:37] Such an inspiration, I would say actually in the law she's been my role model, because such a graceful woman did really well, extremely intelligent, great leader. And she was actually the one who said to me, "Jay, you need to do what you enjoy, and I can see you running our own firm".

[00:16:53] I credit that to Sue completely because even it's a bit like me with my paralegal chap, even though it wasn't best for her, and she didn't want to lose me. And we got [00:17:00] on really well and, I thought Pittman’s was a great, and they thought I was great. She knew that I probably wouldn't be completely happy until I was running my own firm so, again, it was a step on the path to my ultimate journey, I suppose my destination. 

[00:17:11] Lara Quie: [00:17:11] Yeah. So, it sounds like Sue O'Brian was a fantastic mentor for you. And, as we know in law, actually having a mentor or several, in fact, several mentors, is the way to progress in your career, grow your confidence, learn things that other people can teach you so, that you don't have to go through all the struggles yourself.  And it's interesting that you had a female lawyer, as your mentor. And they certainly say that for female lawyers. Trying to make progress. Having more male mentors actually is very, very helpful.  Men speaking up for you, validating your strengths and all of that.  So, I'm wondering about, your view on mentoring and what about younger solicitors at the moment?  How could they go about getting a mentor like you managed to find?

[00:17:58] Jay Sahota: [00:17:58] That's [00:18:00] a really good idea, actually. And I'll quickly tell you a story I get a lot of CVs from paralegals, trainees people looking for work experience, et cetera. And they're using that word more and more. Now they're saying actually we want a role model and a mentor and a leader. Somebody who is going to guide us. I think when I was in the law that wasn't really a big thing. Actually, we kind of just slipped into what we were doing and that just became, that was what you did really.

[00:18:24] And there wasn't so, much talk of mentors or being molded in a particular way. And now by very much talk about seeing not only the experience of what's going on in a law firm and the types of clients in the work you're working on, but having that person, you can guide them in that career, train them on the law, networking, building relationships, how to run a law firm, commerciality, thinking outside the box, all those things.

[00:18:44] And the reason why, again, I think those skills are ever more important now than they were then. Because I think the whole world of law has changed actually in the big firms. You can pretty much sit there, and the work will come in and fall into a lap when you're running your own.   You're out there looking for the work you're being commercial and looking at new [00:19:00] opportunities, you're building relationships, you're leading others, all those skills that you don't really see if you're just sitting there as an employee in a big firm, actually.

[00:19:06] And I think a lot of these people now realize that those skills, whether you were in a big firm or not, are so, important that they need somebody to guide them and mold them because you don't just learn their skills naturally overnight, by osmosis. You need to learn them from somebody who's doing the things that you want to learn about.

[00:19:21] So, that's why mentoring, and coaching I think is really important. How would you go about it? I would do what these young students are doing. I would actually approach people. I don't mean me necessarily. I'm not going to blow my own trumpet I'm nowhere near the best, but I approach people in the law who you look up to, and say to them, would you mind being my mentor?

[00:19:38] Actually, most people take it as a massive compliment to be approached. Wouldn't they? I certainly do when people say to me, actually, I love your firm because I see that you're out there on social media and you're the happy solicitor and we wouldn't be talking otherwise if it weren't for relationships.  And they see that side of you and they want to learn from you.

[00:19:54] So, I would say approach as many people as you can. Make sure they are conducive to what you're [00:20:00] doing. I mean, if you're doing corporate law then don't approach somebody who is off doing European law or something and there needs to be some synergy in what you're doing. But also go for an array of people.

[00:20:09] Don't just go for one particular type of person, go to somebody who's a leader. Go to somebody who's known for networking, somebody who is known for building their firms. So, I would approach.  different people in different guises so, that you could learn as much from them as possible but keeping in mind what you want to do ultimately so, that they all tie in together.

[00:20:25] Lara Quie: [00:20:25] That's fantastic advice. And I love the concept of having all of these different experts like a board of directors, isn't it, right. Create your own board. You can be “You Inc.” like “Jay Inc.” And what this whole board of directors, each of them inputting you, giving their advice for your company, which is you to succeed.

[00:20:47] So, that's a great idea. And I love that. And I think I've always been very lucky, too. Just like organically grow a sort of mentoring relationship with someone rather unintentionally. But yes, it's about actually being [00:21:00] intentional about it and saying, Hey, I want a mentor looking out for who would be a great person and then asking them, because as you say, this concept is relatively new.  And so, someone, when you ask them, "would you be my mentor?" They know exactly what you mean.  and they'll be much more inclined to act in the proper way,  in terms of understanding what that entails,  imparting their experience, giving  helpful advice. And I do like the fact that you've said, a lot of it was about giving advice that actually is to your detriment. So, telling that young paralegal that you could see their talent, and you're saying, look, go see the big bright lights and see what that looks like.   You've got the talent to succeed there. So, if you want to do that, you should try it out.

[00:21:45] But if you want it to come back in a few years, I welcome you with open arms, but I know that you have to go on that journey.  And it is a lot about that. Isn't it? And you do have to be selfless to be the best mentor because often, they might say, Oh, [00:22:00] I want to go to your university and your law school and blah, blah, blah. But actually, you'll go, you know what? This other path is better for you. You should try this.    You mentioned networking and I know that you're an absolute networking King and I know that you're quite an advocate of chambers of commerce and BNI. Business Networking International. Are you still involved in that and what sorts of things have you, how have you benefited from networking like that? 

[00:22:26] Jay Sahota: [00:22:26] I love networking.  It's weird because again, when I was at the big firms, it was never really part of the makeup network and you're never made to go network. You didn't need to network work would just come in through the door. But as I said, the world is changing. And I think not only the big firms who just expect that work to land in their lap but the small firms, the high street firms who are used to clients, just walking in live, physically walking in. I think most those times are changing.

[00:22:49] People are very savvy now. And two things are happening that didn't happen say 10, 15 years ago when we were at the height of our, powers in practice. Well, hopefully still there now, but you know what I mean?  [00:23:00] Social media, which is huge.  LinkedIn Facebook, I do a lot of stuff on LinkedIn as well, which is its own form of networking.

[00:23:06] When I was at Pittman's for example, I remember trying to go into LinkedIn. Nobody really knew what it was. I remember getting somebody saying, please show me how to use LinkedIn. Oh, what's LinkedIn now. It's huge. Isn't it? In terms of virtual networking effectively building relationships with people.

[00:23:18] So, social media is huge, and networking is huge. Again, it's really come into its own over the last, I'd say 10 years.  Even in the smaller firms when I was coming up through the ranks, yes, people went networking, but it wasn't a necessary part of your makeup. Whereas now I think it really is because clients are: A) very savvy and going on social media and looking for solicitors and B), you get a lot of, I'd say most of your best quality work by referrals actually. So, networking is very, very, very important.  And we can't be lazy and sit on laurels and waiting for that work to just fly in because I don't think it does anymore.

[00:23:53] Really. I'm hoping that those firms who do assume that it is are going to get a rude awakening because my firm, as you know, and myself we're very active in terms of social [00:24:00] media and networking is really important. So, I love networking. I do a lot of it.  I had been in BNI for 13 years. I left recently, actually Not because I dislike BNI, and I love BNI, but I just think my journey with BNI had come to its natural conclusion.

[00:24:13] I do a lot more besides yes, I do. Chambers of commerce. I'd go to a lot of local and London, and now given the virtual world national events, international events. So, I'm all over the place there. Lots of different networking online, which I love actually because I've met more people virtually over the last year or so, then I would have been able to make physically and it has saved me so, much time and effort instead of, losing all that time in travel in time between meetings.

[00:24:35] So, I love networking.  I've built really good relationships through networking.  And it sounds funny, but I don't do it to get work. I do it because I like meeting people. I like connecting people and collaborating and helping people. So, I'd always say to people how can I help you to get more clients?

[00:24:50] And I will try and look out for contacts and clients for you. If something comes as a result of it, fine. If it doesn't, it's not the end of the world. And I think it's part of my human duty and also important [00:25:00] part of my religion is to help people just get what they want. And if there's an incidental benefit for me, fine.

[00:25:04] But if there isn't, then it's not the end of the world, basically. So, I do love networking. I do lots of different types. I would advocate it and recommend it, thoroughly, because you do get your best quality work, through networking, but very importantly, as you know, Lara, yourself, networking is a small part of the equation. Really one to ones are the real gem. That's where you really build the relationships, work out how you can help each other in business, build the relationship, and having those regular one-to-ones with people, I think is really important. There's networking. If you like, is the sounds a bit cheesy, but it's the funnel to meeting lots of people and you meet people, get on with them and work out how you can refer work to each other, but you're right, the germ of the idea is networking. And I really love networking.  It's funny, a lot of lawyers don't love networking. They don't collaborate.  Particularly lawyers, they want to keep their clients and then they're not interested in collaboration and they're not interested in building relationships.

[00:25:54] And they do assume that work's always going to flood in so, networking.  Why should I go networking? I'm always going to have all the work that I want. I think [00:26:00] that's quite an arrogant view these days. And I think there's a lot of benefits in collaborating, building relationships, networking, and. As I say, genuinely trying to help other people because it's in the cosmic sphere of things, if you help people, then one day they will help you.

[00:26:13] Lara Quie: [00:26:13] Absolutely. And it's very much the secret of your success. I think, the fact that you've been able to bring Jarmans really to such a level in terms of the clients that you have and the quality of your staff it's around, having a good personality and liking to be with other people because there is quite significant research actually into lawyer personality by Dr. Larry Richard. And in that research, it came out that many solicitors are actually, very low on social contact. They're really, really not keen on small talk. They're not keen on networking.  And building those relationships.

[00:26:48] So, they're very comfortable with old relationships say from school days, et cetera, and obviously close family and friends.  But it, when it comes to going out there and meeting strangers, they [00:27:00] actually find that very, very challenging. It's not something they enjoy. They forced themselves to do it. And that's why being a solicitor actually can be a very challenging thing to be, because if a large part of your work involves doing things you don't like, you're not going to be happy.

[00:27:17] And as you say the way that law has changed, and the way that i t used to be, as you say, the work, just falling on your desk and you should just do it. And it was great. It is completely different. There's huge competition. There's a lot of legal disruption that you can literally search on Google for a contract and lots of people that doing it themselves loads of people are just making it up as they go along.

[00:27:38] But the reality is that. People do business, who they know like and trust, and you need to therefore have an actual relationship. So, as you say, it's the one to ones. So, it's doing a virtual networking event. So, you get on there, there’s a hundred people there. And do you kind of look at the names and you see where they are and you know what makes sense, who [00:28:00] looks nice?

[00:28:00] Who looks friendly, who's got an open face, a good manner, and you can almost feel it, through the screen and then you'll go, Hey, I'm going to reach out to that person. And so, you connect with them on LinkedIn, and you go. Yeah, we were just on the same thing and it's great that you've got an interest in X.   Do you fancy, a quick zoom, we could just do a half an hour on zoom, let me know when you're free, blah, blah, blah. And then that begins a relationship. And of course, you end up being on zoom way more than an hour and booking another session and becoming best friends.

[00:28:29] But I think young people in particular, they don't realize how quickly 20 years passes. Right. So, they always go, oh my friends, they're just my friends and I don't need to see them as my future network. But the reality is that, when you hit your mid-forties, your friends are also in their mid-forties or older or slightly younger, but they are all senior executives or solicitors in other firms or starting their own business or something, they are all going to be movers and [00:29:00] shakers. And if you've maintained those relationships and you have helped them, all your life. They're going to reach out to you again. And I must say for me, starting my own business, it's not like I'm starting from scratch at all because my entire network has been there forever.

[00:29:16] I was the kid that had 60 pen pals, in the days when we used to write letters, I had 60 pen pals when Facebook was there. And do you remember friends reunited? Oh, my God. I had hundreds of friends reunited on that. So, when LinkedIn came along, I was at home. So, I love LinkedIn. It's the most fantastic platform ever.

[00:29:40] Everybody should be on it. Every single solicitor should have their profile on there and learn how to grow their personal brand, leveraging all sorts of media.  There are these lawyers, right? Who are going viral on Tik TOK, right there. Have you ever been on Tik TOK? 

[00:29:58] Jay Sahota: [00:29:58] No, I haven't actually. No. I've just [00:30:00] dipped my toe into Twitter recently, but not, I'm very active on LinkedIn, but I've never done Tik Tok actually.

[00:30:04] Lara Quie: [00:30:04] I'm feeling that your magician tricks, right. Your magic tricks could look awesome on Tik Tok. You could be Jay, the magic solicitor or something like that.  

[00:30:14] Make your legal problems disappear. So, you could use the hat and the wand and go your contract, your disputes. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, enough of that. What about the fact that owning Jarmans I know that you bought the firm taken over as senior partner, but now that means that you're not just a solicitor, you're an entrepreneur?

[00:30:39] And of course COVID situation has been difficult.  What are the main challenges of being an entrepreneur? 

[00:30:44] Jay Sahota: [00:30:44] Gosh, that's a very good question actually. The challenge always is people actually, I'll be completely honest with you.  As an entrepreneur, as a business owner, as the owner of a law firm, you can grapple with most things actually, because let's say you've seen most things either as you've grown up in your legal career or you come across situations every day. [00:31:00]

[00:31:00] And that's the cut and thrust of running a law firm.  It's not easy running a law firm is very, very, very hard work.  Particularly as I'm very honest about Jarmans when I took over Jarmans it wasn't necessarily in the best place. So, I've had to do a lot of work to it.

[00:31:11] As you said and get the right people on board, the right clients, the right development sectors, checking it out, systems, processes, all the rest of it.   It's taken a lot of hard work, which I really enjoy. So, that has been a challenge, but actually the biggest challenge, but I've enjoyed all of that.

[00:31:22] Actually. I really do enjoy it, but I would be bored just sitting there doing the law. I'd have to do all these other bits as well. I'm telling you; it'd be like the biggest challenge is always people.  And I have realized over my time of running the law firm, I've got a very good team of staff now.

[00:31:36] They're fantastic. Actually. I'm very, very proud of them. I'm really, really pleased to say that but that comes through a lot of hard work. And when it comes to people, whether it's staff or clients, you need to learn to trust your gut instinct really, really important. And that's why I say the biggest challenge is people.

[00:31:51] What I mean by that is this let's look at staff. First of all, if you, in your initial interview and the staff member think, I'm not sure whether they're going to be right, but I didn't like the way they [00:32:00] spoke and they were late for the interview. They didn't explain why I didn't apologize. They're not going to be right generally.

[00:32:05] You can make all the excuses in the world and there are exceptions. Of course, there are, I've actually got a couple of members of staff who I wasn't quite sure about when I first interviewed them and they've blossomed into wonderful members of staff, but that's the exception.

[00:32:16] Generally, if you've got misgivings about somebody early on, then as I say, there, aren't exceptions, then generally follow your gut and don't employ them. And that's what I mean about staff being a challenge in the past. I've recruited people in desperation where if suddenly got very busy. And then later when I saw they want the right fit and that disrupts everything and it's been awful and horrible and I've had to sack people et cetera, et cetera.

[00:32:37] So, that's how it applies to staff - trust your gut. Ask those searching questions in the interview. So, now in my first interview I'll always say, "I hope you're not moany or negative. Do you disrupt other people? And. You were late, how come you were late and you see how people react. If they say, well, then, they’re not going to be right.

[00:32:51] Whereas if they're humble and honest, I'll come on to my 3 Hs in a minute.  Then you know that they're all going to be there. The same applies to clients. Back in the [00:33:00] day, when I first started, we were taking all the clients in the world, Joe Blogs down the road. Yes. We'll have you as a client, big company director. Yes. We'll have you as a client, actually. Don't take clients who you think they're going to be a pain in the whatsit. There is no point at all because they all are then a pain in the whatsit and they give you loads of grief later. We were talking about the stamp duty holiday earlier, Lara, and the pressure that's placed on solicitors.

[00:33:18] And we're actually having some unpleasantness from clients at the moment, but actually when you retrace your steps and look at your initial contact, those are probably the same clients who gave you grief.  When they first instructed you actually, and you knew that they were going to be a pain in the bum. So, don't take clients who aren't, in accordance with your way of thinking who are unpleasant who are difficult at the outset, you didn't call me back and that's all, and then you're trying to bow and scrape to them. No, it's not actually a bow and scraping relationship. It's a relationship of equilibrium.

[00:33:42] It's mutual respect really, really important. So, don't take clients who, are having to source funds from all over the place, because eventually they're not going to pay you if they don't pay one bill, they're not going to pay another bill.  If they're a pain in the proverbial, as I said, bill, don't take them.

[00:33:55] So, follow your gut instinct in that respect. And I would say that my triangle, which I've got, which is my [00:34:00] three H's: honest, humble, hungry, honest, humble, hungry. I apply now when I recruit staff, when I retain staff, I'm assessing them on that every day. Subconsciously of course. And then now I've even started applying it to clients.

[00:34:11] If clients aren't honest and humble, then why do you want them as clients? Because you're never going to get along with human beings and it comes back to relationships. You need to get on with people you're working with. And people you're working for in terms of clients, otherwise it's never going to work.

[00:34:24] So, follow your gut and apply those same principles, to all different types of interaction with different people. And otherwise, it’s never particularly going to work. So, I think that's been my biggest challenge, difficult clients at times, difficult staff, not now because I've got a really good team now, but I'm dealing with difficult staff in the past.

[00:34:39] And the reason why it's difficult is because it’s that interaction on a human level and people don't like discord.  In personal relationships?  Something else you can deal with it if a client moans you can deal with it. If a cheque bounces, you can deal with it. Whereas, human relationships are different because they're on different plane in terms of mentality.

[00:34:53] Generally they tend to be more challenging, but we can see a way through if we're more discerning about the sorts of people we're dealing with. I think. 

[00:34:59] [00:35:00] Lara Quie: [00:34:59] And I think it's interesting that because you're the owner of the firm, you can actually choose who you work with, and that is the freedom. And that actually is the secret to your happiness. Because the thing that makes many solicitors unhappy is that they are dealing with these appalling people, really are not treated well by these clients. Really don't want to work for these people and they're making horrible, horrible, unreasonable demands.

[00:35:24] It's relentless. And I think that you just lose faith in human nature, don't you, and I think that's why it's so, demoralizing because people are not feeling valued.  When they do a great job and staying till 3:00 AM to complete a task, they're not given any thanks by those clients they're just told, Oh, well you were late.  We wanted that yesterday. And I think it's that powerlessness.  The concept of, we just have to take any work until we literally run out of hours in the day, because, but that will never happen because we can just get another body on board.

[00:35:55] And it's that sort of feeding that people are just assets and that the work comes [00:36:00] in and we'll just throw all the assets that we need to at this particular thing. But it's like, no people are. People. And, and that’s one of the challenges that the very largest firms in that, people become so, dehumanized and they always tell you things like we don't care if you can't work these hours because there's somebody else who can, and there's, if you're a trainee and you go this is quite, hard. And I could really do with a bit of a rest. Oh, well there are thousands of other trainees that will take your place.

[00:36:27] And you're told all the time how replaceable you are. And I think that does nothing for the morale and the spirit and camaraderie and all of that sort of stuff. So, everyone just over time begins to feel, more and more depressed and that leads nicely on to mental health luckily there's a lot more conversation round mental health. I think the legal profession has been really dogged by this problem of mental health, because you've got a bunch of highly intelligent people who often actually do struggle more because they overthink [00:37:00] things.

[00:37:00] They are very perfectionist. Their standards are beyond what is achievable. And this means that they're just cannot achieve what they've set in their own mind. And so, that constant feeling of inadequacy, coupled with the fact that they often have an overinflated opinion of themselves is a sort of a weird thing. Cause you’ve got the two extremes going on at the same time. And mental health doesn't cope well with long hours. Your body can only take so, much and you become a zombie after a certain amount of time. So, you've got people who are sleep deprived, they're in the office, so, they're not having good nutrition, and their stressed. So, their immunity levels are very depleted. It's just a recipe for disaster. And then you throw COVID into the mix. So, you give a whole bunch of risk averse, people who love control and certainty, and you tell them, "well, we just don't know when this is going to end, it's never ending, and you could be like this forever" [00:38:00] and the economy is going to tank as well, of course.  And there's Brexit to think about.  People in the UK must be just having the most incredible time. And so, how are you handling that at Jarmans? 

[00:38:10] Jay Sahota: [00:38:10] Very good question.  People are having a difficult time. I think generally I've noticed it particularly recently over the last few months, actually.  I don't mean my employees specifically, but the general world, I’ll be completely honest with you.  I've had a bit of a rough January and so, we've got lots of reasons. COVID.  I love snow, but the snow didn't help kind of business here for a couple of weeks that we had it Brexit, the general mood at the moment in the nation. Isn't great. I mean, it's improved because of the vaccine and our roadmap out to lock down, which has been passed. I hate that phrase. roadmap out of lockdown you know what it is?  I should have just called it lifting lock down and they would have been more positive roadmap out of lockdown.   That is leading now some positivity, but it's been difficult because you've got, as I said, you've got all of those factors, people working at home, not interacting with others.

[00:38:48] As a boss, for me, it's difficult because I like physically to walk around and see my staff and to make sure that I can lead them. How do you lead virtually? Really, really difficult but not impossible, but very difficult because you're not with somebody and inspiring them every day [00:39:00] and motivating them and geeing them up, et cetera.

[00:39:01] So, it's hard. There's a general kind of umbrella of gloom over the UK at the moment, just with what's going on lifting now because you've got this roadmap. So, that has been difficult for people.  But I'm quite open with my staff about mental health.  We had a firm meeting the other day, so, we're always talking about it. And I will say, don't suffer with mental health. Some people are scared to use the phrase mental health in the City? They wouldn.t. They'd be scared. So, I said mental health, it's important.  If you are suffering, come and talk to me, come and talk to me.

[00:39:27] One of the other partners, our practice manager, my wife helps me run the firm so, come and talk to my wife.  If you don't want to talk to me, if it's confidential, she won't disclose what you've spoken about. Talk to her. If you don't want to talk to me. So, that letting off steam talking about it as you go along is really, really important, which as you know, is not something that's encouraged in the city at all.

[00:39:43] I don't know whether it's changed now, but if you went to your boss and said, or mental health, I say, well, here's a P45 that's. Okay. But now it's not a taboo anymore. So, I do teach my staff that.  If you've got issues then you must talk about it, we're not alone, talk to your colleagues, talk to us again, talk to all the people that are on offer.

[00:39:58] If you need me to get therapy or counseling [00:40:00] for you, then I will do and I'll pay for it. Absolutely fine. But it's also being visible, and we have these regular team catch ups.  And on many of them, we won't talk about work at all. So, we will, I think we had one, a couple of weeks ago where we said what's the first thing you want to do when you're out of lockdown.

[00:40:12] There were some unsavory answers. I'll be honest, but I wasn't going to get into those. And instead, the first thing you want to do when you're not to look down, and that just gets, people's kind of switched off and not being here at work for the hour, but they get to see their colleagues.  And also, I’m safely encouraging a few people start coming back into the office now.

[00:40:26] So, I'm in the office today. I work in the office three days a week, and that helps because you find that people come and see their colleagues and say hello. And that really helps as well. So, I'm encouraging people to do that rather than just being stuck at home all the time.

[00:40:36] Because if you are in four walls all day with your cat, trying to get up your leg and your dog and your kids running around and, your wife on zoom, screaming at you up the stairs, all that malarkey, then it’s going to be difficult. Isn't it? It's encouraging people to get out and about again and sharing their experiences.

[00:40:52] I mean, just talking I talk to myself very openly and if I'm having a bad day, I'll say to them, I'm having a bad day. It's always been the adage. Isn't it, Lara, that a [00:41:00] boss should never disclose how they're feeling. It should be tight lips. And if they see that you're not feeling well, one particularly day it's going to affect them. Actually. Now I think it humanizes people. So, I say it to people actually I'm not having the best day today, so, I disagree with those people who say that you must be this unimpeachable, statue all the time, who your staff look up to. We're all equals yes. I know there's a hierarchy in my firm but we're equal. So, you need to share it. How can you understand people unless you share experiences with, to say actually, yeah, I'm not having the best time at the moment because somebody, my family's not talking to me or I don't feel that well et cetera, that humanizes people.

[00:41:30] And then people feel like they can talk to you. Whereas if you're this huge character sitting in their ivory tower, that how are they going to talk to you about those everyday issues they can't. So, you must humanize yourself and talk to people on a level, , which is what I tried to do at Jarmans, and I hope my staff, but I know my staff appreciate that and,  as a result we get on very well and when we're a good team, but that communication is awfully important.

[00:41:50] Lara Quie: [00:41:50] It is all about communication and leadership is, about inspiring people to follow you. It's not telling people to [00:42:00] follow you because it's about, as you say, respect, it's about them looking up to you because they genuinely think that you're the person they want to follow. Who's got the creativity and the ideas to lead and the COVID situations definitely brought to the fore. The fact that the successful leaders are the ones showing authenticity and vulnerability, acknowledging what's going on, acknowledging how they're feeling that they don't have all the answers that the uncertainty really is there, and that we all feel it and that everyone's in it together.

[00:42:32] Everyone has their part to play and as leader, you'll do your best for them. And you’ll probably make some bad decisions, but at the time you're just doing what you feel is best.  Given the fact that, so, let's, yeah, let's put all the caveats in the small print being lawyers.  Based on the facts that we have at our fingertips at this point in time, I'm going to suggest that we do this.

[00:42:57] So, it sounds like communication is definitely the way [00:43:00] forward. People want clear, consistent messaging. They don't want all of the complicated stuff.  Talking about the lockdown and the roadmap out of it.  It does sound that it's been a bit clearer, but before yeah. If there was total chaos, because nobody actually understood what was going on in terms of, they were all these different areas of the UK. Wales was doing its own thing and Scotland's doing its own thing, but where is the border?

[00:43:26] I mean, I'm no good at geography that I really know what's where and then you've got people driving the length of the country to test their eyes and you've got all sorts going on, people going on trains when they've got COVID.  Definitely the messaging.  We're coming to the end of our podcast and we mustn't forget about your family and the magic. So, tell me more about your magic tricks, et cetera. 

[00:43:49] Jay Sahota: [00:43:49] Magic I, started doing when I was, again, my aunts introduced me to magic. So, I started when I was six, but I've really bigged up my aunts haven't I today? Well, they ought to be bigged up I think that's good. [00:44:00] They took me to Hamley's and I was six.  I still remember going with them actually and walking around and I saw somebody doing some magic, and it's different if you see somebody doing it in front of you, it's different from seeing it on TV. Of course, I'd seen on TV, but this was physically in front of you. They're wonderful.

[00:44:12] Doing close up magic. And I thought, “Gosh, this is fantastic.” So, I bought a Paul Daniels magic set, which stayed with me for many years actually, and Paul Daniels is my idol he’s just, absolutely wonderful. They talk about the great magicians, but he is the greatest magician because he was innovative, and his sleight of hand was amazing. He was engaging. He came up with new ideas and I even wrote to him once. And I said, I can't quite get this trick right. Can you help me? And he wrote back, and he did help me. So, I was amazed. I'm forever grateful to Paul up there.  God rest his soul.  So, in my day I was really very good, actually. So, I was doing a bit of restaurant work, weddings and parties and stuff. and I loved it. Absolutely fantastic. A lot for family. And now I'm slowly teaching my kids. M y son, I think he's got a natural spark for magic.  So, I've taught him a few tricks and he even did one at school recently, for his teachers, and they loved it. They absolutely loved it. And he's got a bit of a swagger about him as well. So, that went down really well. [00:45:00] So, I do some magic, but I love my magic. I need to do more of it because it's a release from everyday work. It completely takes you out of your, every day and your stresses and strains of life.

[00:45:08] Because when you're doing, magic you can't be thinking about much else. So, I love my magic.  I've got a magic cupboard at home. It's all my props and tricks and books and everything is still in it, but I love my magic again, it was a nice release that helped me actually, when I was growing up. Cause I was quite, not lonely as a child, but my brother and sister, quite a bit younger than I am. So, there was quite a period when I was growing up alone and that magic really helped me.  So, I've always been very fond of it.

[00:45:29] I still watch magic all the time, again, teaching the kids and I want it to be a family thing because for me it was a family thing because my aunts introduced me to it.  So, I want to pass it on to my children because, I always say there's my children and my lights and my soul and my God. It's just so, important to me, everything I do, I do it for my children and  my wife.

[00:45:45] So, that's all kind of tied in together. Isn't it really, it's probably what makes me the happy solicitor: my magic, my children, my God.  What I'm doing, running my own firm.  And you've got to be happy doing what you're doing.  So, now whenever I'm particularly stressed, I used to be that I would just touch the [00:46:00] inside of my shoe with my big toe. And then I would instantly think about my children and just look very happy when this started and relaxed.  But when I'm stressed now, I think of the time when my daughter came home from hospital, she was very premature.

[00:46:09] She was over three months premature. So, she's one pound 12 when she was born. So, she's a little miracle, as well talking about magic. And I remember when I got her home and, she was lying on my chest and we both fell asleep together. And that was the most relaxed I've ever been.

[00:46:22] So, if I'm ever stressed, I think about that moment and it just lifts me straight away, but my children are everything to me.  Yeah, God I'm going to get emotional if I keep talking. So, hope that was a concise enough answer. 

[00:46:33] Lara Quie: [00:46:33] On that note. I think we should draw to a close and say, thank you so, much, Jay Sahota for your inspiration and, I am sure that anybody listening to this podcast will be inspired by your journey and all of the nuggets of wisdom that you've shared. So, thank you so, much. 

[00:46:50] Jay Sahota: [00:46:50] Very kind. Thank you, Lara. Lovely to see you. 

[00:46:52] Lara Quie: [00:46:52] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode of the legal genie podcast, please go to Apple podcasts, and give [00:47:00] it a rating and review to help others. Find it. Please do subscribe so, that you don't miss the next exciting episode of the legal genie podcast. Thanks for listening. Have a magical week ahead.