Building a Legal Community with Daniel Lo, Founder of LegalGrounds - Episode 10

This week in Episode 10 of the Legal Genie podcast, your host, Lara Quie is in conversation with Daniel Lo. Daniel is a private equity lawyer and is triple-qualified in Canada, England & Wales and the British Virgin Islands. 

He was born in Hong Kong, and proudly calls Canada his home. He is currently working as a legal counsel in-house at UBS in Singapore and is focusing on investment funds and asset management. 

Outside of his day job, Daniel is a passionate community creator and provides mentorship and career coaching to law students and junior lawyers from around the world, assisting with international career pivots and personal branding strategies.

He is the creator of LegalGrounds, an online platform created for the Singapore legal community to encourage collaboration and mentorship.

He is also the head of legal for Voices of Asia, a Singapore-based social enterprise that supports mentorship with youth and young professionals, 

Daniel is an executive committee member of the Canadian Alumni Network Singapore, a professional association that promotes continued relations between Singaporeans and Canadians.

Daniel is also an advocate for diversity and inclusion and is proudly a founder of Global Lawyers of Canada, a national professional association that supports internationally trained lawyers and diversity in the Canadian legal profession. 

In this episode Daniel shares:

·         His international background 

·         His multiple studies and reason for going into law

·         His reasons for studying abroad

·         His first job as an ISDA negotiator

·         Getting a training contract with Dentons LLP in Calgary, Canada

·         Qualifying into energy law as an Associate 

·         Moving back overseas and finding an in-house role at an asset management firm in Hong Kong

·         Having mentors and giving back

·         Moving to offshore firm, Walkers LLP in Singapore

·         His advice on when to move in-house

·         Moving back in-house at UBS

·         His passion project: LegalGrounds – its community and mission

·         Lawyers of the future and how they need to focus on building their technological acumen and personal brand

Learn more about Daniel Lo:

You can connect with Daniel here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/danlo/

https://www.legalgrounds.asia/

Also:

·         If you liked this episode, please rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

·         Look out for the next episode coming soon.

You can connect with Lara Quie as follows:

·         On LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie

·         Website: https:/

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

The Legal Genie Podcast Episode 10 with Daniel Lo

[00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for joining me, Lara Quie, for the Legal Genie Podcast. As a former corporate lawyer and APAC Head of Business Development for an international law firm. My mission with this podcast is to provide you with insights into the careers and lives of movers and shakers in the legal industry. 

[00:00:39] Mentors are hard to come by. So, by listening to these conversations, I hope that you will gain some valuable insights that will help you move forward in your career and personal life. I ask my guests to share their advice and experience with you. I asked them also to share about their mindset. 

As an executive coach, [00:01:00] I work one-on-one with lawyers to grow their practice and self-confidence, I also run mastermind groups and business development accelerators designed to bring like-minded people together, to learn, grow, and support each other. 

[00:01:13] If you'd like to learn more, please connect with me on LinkedIn or through my website. The details are in the show notes. Please rate and review the Legal Genie Podcast to help us reach more people who may find it helpful. So, let's move on to this week's episode. I hope that you enjoy the conversation.  

[00:01:31] Lara Quie: [00:01:31] Hello, and welcome to Episode 10 of the Legal Genie podcast with me, Lara Quie. This week I'm in conversation with Daniel Lo. Daniel is a private equity lawyer and is triple qualified in Canada, England and Wales, and the British Virgin Islands. He was born in Hong Kong and proudly calls Canada, his home. 

[00:01:52] He's currently working as a legal counsel at UBS in Singapore and is focused on investment funds and asset [00:02:00] management. Outside of his day job, Daniel is a passionate community creator and also provides mentorship and career coaching to law students and junior lawyers from around the world, assisting with international career pivots and personal branding strategies. 

[00:02:13] He’s the creator of LegalGrounds. An online platform created for the Singapore legal community to encourage collaboration and mentorship. He's also the head of legal for Voices of Asia. A Singapore based social enterprise that supports mentorship with youth and young professionals. Daniel is an executive committee member of the Canadian Alumni Networks Singapore, a professional association that promotes continued relations between Singaporeans and Canadians. 

[00:02:40] Daniel is an advocate for diversity and inclusion and is proudly a founder of Global Lawyers of Canada, a national professional association that supports internationally trained lawyers and diversity in the Canadian legal profession. On a personal note, Daniel is a novice chef who has embraced the mantra of "it tastes better than it looks" and [00:03:00] has nearly mastered his new instant pot, slow cooker.  

[00:03:03] Welcome to the Legal Genie podcast, Daniel Lo. It's really great to have you here on the show. 

[00:03:10] Daniel Lo: [00:03:10] Hi Lara. Thanks for having me. 

[00:03:12] Lara Quie: [00:03:12] Great, so, I know that you've got a really interesting story and we're going to be covering everything from the start to where you are now. So, let's start right at the very beginning. So, tell me a bit about your childhood and where you grew up and a bit about your family. 

[00:03:28] Daniel Lo: [00:03:28] Yeah, sure. So, all the way to the beginning, I was originally born in Hong Kong and I moved to Canada. I moved to Toronto specifically when I was five years old with my family.

[00:03:40] And basically ever since then, I've been raised in Canada, in Toronto. I high schooled there did my undergraduate at the University of Toronto. And then after that, I actually moved over to the UK to do my law degree at University of Birmingham. And actually, after that, headed over to London, wrote the LPC [00:04:00] and then came back to Toronto and wrote my LLM at University of Toronto. Again, I can never leave the university. They've gotten my tuition money twice already. And yeah, I mean that's schooling so far, but my childhood has been Hong Kong and Canada back and forth. 

[00:04:14] Lara Quie: [00:04:14] So, I know that you actually did a different degree to start with political science and criminology. So, tell me a bit about wanting to study criminology and what you were thinking at that point in time. 

[00:04:26] Daniel Lo: [00:04:26] In my family, I don't have a lawyer or anyone legally trained. So, I wasn't able to ask for advice on how to get to law school or what degrees I should be doing in Canada and also in the United States, it's very common for students to do a prelaw degree. Now, if you think about what a pre-law means, it really doesn't mean much because in the UK, especially you can do any degree and jump into law right there, you do a GTL or do a senior status degree. So, no one told me that. So, I thought, you know what's the closest thing to a law criminology, and political science. So, that was the [00:05:00] impetus in doing that degree. 

[00:05:02] Lara Quie: [00:05:02] I see. But it sounds like you already knew that you wanted to go into law. So, what was driving that? 

[00:05:09] Daniel Lo: [00:05:09] Yeah, I did even when I was doing my politics degree, I knew that I eventually want to do a law degree. I think the reason why I wanted to do law is because in the summertime, when I was an undergrad, I ran a student painting franchise called "College Pro". So, these are programs where university students, would run a franchise, hire around 15 high schoolers and essentially run a business for the entire year. During the off season, during the winter seasons in Canada, we would be knocking on doors, selling paint jobs that we were gonna be doing in the summertime.  That on top of studies is quite difficult, but I thought that this is a great way for me to experience business as an entrepreneur. So, I did that for two years. And during that time there were instances where perhaps some of my employees had messed up on someone's driveway and poured white paint all over the freshly paved block driveway.

[00:05:57] So, that happened twice actually. [00:06:00] And it wasn't fun because obviously the client was unhappy, but they would throw out things like, "Oh, you know what? I can sue you". And that always scared me, the suing threat. I didn't know my rights. I didn't know the law. And I felt bad for my high school kids too, because they didn't know their rights either.

[00:06:16] Not knowing the law at that point, really put myself in jeopardy in terms of my personal welfare, but also my employees. So, I think those experiences during those summers really scared me straight to say, you know what, Daniel, you need to understand the law a little bit. 

[00:06:31] Lara Quie: [00:06:31] That's probably the most original reason for going into law that I've ever had personal experience in the fear of being sued and not able to defend yourself. And so, you went to the University of Birmingham in the UK. So, you knew you wanted to study law, but why didn't you do that in Toronto? 

[00:06:50] Daniel Lo: [00:06:50] Great question. And I got asked this a lot because when I go over to the UK for any Canadians that go abroad, international fees are enormous. It was a big risk for [00:07:00] me in terms of money wise, but also commitment. If I did this, I needed to do law and qualify. So, I think for me, when I was deciding law schools, I was asking my dad, " if I want to practice internationally later on, I don't want to necessarily stay in Canada all my life, what should I be doing?" And my dad coming from Hong Kong, he advised me, Hong Kong was a British colony. So, are, Singapore as well in Asia, a British degree goes a long way. In terms of alumni base, but also, they have such a long-standing reputation. And a funny thing is in Hong Kong, the chief justice at the time was a university of Birmingham grad.

[00:07:35] And he was just reading the newspaper, showing me the newspaper, and said, "Hey, have you thought about this university? Have you heard about University of Birmingham?" I had never. But then when I did a little bit more research and realized that what a lot of great universities UK have this alumni base in Asia already, maybe if I do a degree at these universities, it will open doors for me later on. So, that was the kind of thinking process behind why the UK and not Canada. [00:08:00] 

[00:08:00] Lara Quie: [00:08:00] That makes a lot of sense. And I liked the connection with the university of Birmingham. And after though you went to City University for your LPC, what was behind the choice for choosing City?

[00:08:12] Daniel Lo: [00:08:12] Choosing City. Because at the time, actually, they were transitioning from being called the Inns of Court School of Law to City Law. And I was once again, reading up on the history behind the Inns and realized that Gandhi had gone there, and it just seems like the lineage at the law school was fairly comprehensive and extensive.

[00:08:32] So, I really want to belong to alumni base that had that heritage. So, that's why I chose that. But obviously for the LPC, I chose the LPC because I wanted to eventually practice in London. And at the time I was intending to stay in London. I had a few training contract interviews and whatnot. But that was 2010 and it was post financial crisis.

[00:08:50] A lot of the law firms or companies told me, unless you have an EU citizenship, it will be hard for us to justify hiring you over a local candidate. [00:09:00] And all that with financial crisis too. Just wasn't lucky enough to land anything at that time.

[00:09:06] Lara Quie: [00:09:06] I see. Yes. Because usually what happens is while you're at university, the milk rounds will come around and usually a training contract. Certainly, in my case, I wouldn't have dreamt of going to law school without my training contract in hand and then paying for law school for me. So, it's interesting. So, you obviously self-funded your LPC? So, after you got your LPC, how did you manage to get a training contract? 

[00:09:32] Daniel Lo: [00:09:32] After I got my LPC and after the round rejections felt a little bit deflated and I eventually had to leave London because my visa was running out, came back to Toronto, not in the best spirits. But at that point in time, my mom and dad basically told me, what have you lost here? At this point? You haven't lost anything you've gained an LPC. You gained a law degree and you gained three years of amazing experience in the UK. So, I essentially started to do my conversion exams in Canada, and I started applying for [00:10:00] jobs and eventually applied for an LLM at UFT to upgrade my credentials.

[00:10:05] Lara Quie: [00:10:05] So, you felt like you actually needed something extra then back in Canada?

[00:10:11] Daniel Lo: [00:10:11] Yeah, because I think in Canada and I think in some other legal markets too, they're very conservative and they protect their own, which is a great thing, but it's not so great if you're from the outside, even though I was Canadian, I had a foreign law degree.

[00:10:25] And that wasn't as recognized as say, going to UFT to do a law degree or going to Osgood or UBC. So, for me, it was two prongs, one for marketing purposes to say that I attended a law school in Canada. And number two it's to have some relevant Canadian legal experience or legal knowledge actually. So, I can actually compare to my other colleagues.

[00:10:46] Lara Quie: [00:10:46] I know that actually you went to Dentons for training. But before that though, you did something else, didn't you? What did you do? 

[00:10:54] Daniel Lo: [00:10:54] It's a really weird role and I never thought that I would do it.   The official title is ISDA negotiator. And I think [00:11:00] those who are not in financial markets or capital markets would not know what an ISDA is. So, I think the long form is International Swaps and Derivatives Association. And the agreement is basically a long form agreement boiler plate, where you negotiate on OTC, derivative traits. So, I landed in that because during my LLM, my thesis was on securities regulation in Canada and related to ISDAs not really, but it was enough for me to convince the hiring manager that yes, I could do this job. So, I did that for two years, negotiating these agreements with other financial institutions back and forth. And this is before landing a training contract because I wasn't sure at the time, whether I wanted to continue with law remember beginning, I want to learn the law and that would provide me with some protection while at the point in time, I've learned enough law.

[00:11:42] So, I was thinking maybe I go back into business. Cause that's clearly an area that I enjoy. But yeah, after two years of that, I realized, you know what let's complete this law thing and get qualified. 

[00:11:50] Lara Quie: [00:11:50] How was the view of the recruitment people there at the time when they looked at your path that you'd had, which is slightly unconventional? It sounds like you, had got [00:12:00] some extra training here and there and extra degrees and things, and then you'd got this ISDA experience in the real world, and then you were trying to be a trainee. How was that received? 

[00:12:10] Daniel Lo: [00:12:10] Initially, it was actually quite confusing for them because they joked around and said, have you studied enough? Do you want to study some more? And I'm like no, you know what? This is it, no PhD, this is it. And the second thing for them is not so much my past experience. They thought the ISDA experience was great corporate exposure and whatnot. But because I was applying for training contracts across the country and the interviews I'd had were based in Calgary and Toronto, the Calgary ones Dentons Calgary was asking, “Why Calgary? Why are you choosing this city versus staying back at home in Toronto?” And that's really hard to convince them because if you have no family ties there, same thing. If you're from abroad, trying to work in London, right?

[00:12:46] Why London? So, for me, that was the main hurdle. 

[00:12:49] Lara Quie: [00:12:49] You couldn't just say it was the skiing? 

[00:12:52] Daniel Lo: [00:12:52] You know what I don't ski well, so it can't be that. But I remember my response to them was very plainly for the oil. Calgary [00:13:00] is our basically Houston Texas of Canada. We were o il rich in the city at the time, a barrel of oil was $120.

[00:13:08] Now it's middling around $50 and not so good, but at the time during the heyday Calgary was where it's at a lot of deal flow going on. And it's all because of the oil and gas. 

[00:13:17] Lara Quie: [00:13:17] And so when you were training with Dentons and I actually trained with Dentons as well, but in the London office. I did four seats, six months in each and litigation was compulsory. What kind of training did you have to do? 

[00:13:32] Daniel Lo: [00:13:32] Yeah. So, for our training contract, it's a, we call it articling. And when we're, articling, we're either an articling student or a student at law, we had two major seats. It was a year long and the first six months was the barrister rotation, which consisted of litigation and any kind of arbitration work. But mostly civil lit and commercial lit and the second seat is solicitor. And that was the bulk of my work actually, which included banking, securities, and M&A, and also energy group energy transactions.

[00:13:59] As I [00:14:00] said, Calgary is a big energy center. So, those were the kind of the seats that we did. 

[00:14:05] Lara Quie: [00:14:05] And so you thought at that particular point in time that you might want to be what sort of lawyer? 

[00:14:10] Daniel Lo: [00:14:10] You know what? I had no clue. I think that the whole point of the training contract or the articling experience for me was to explore what I want to do, but in lieu of that, actually explore what I didn't want to do.

[00:14:21] So, I really early on realized that litigation was not for me. I did not like filing claim of claims or, going into courts, speaking in front of judges.  That scared me. So, I decided, let’s pursue a solicitor route. And at the time, because I did my derivatives background, I remember there's some deals where I would negotiate on trading of oil and trading energy. So, that was really interesting for me. And that's why I was leaning more towards the energy side, energy practice in Calgary, because they did derivatives as well. So, it was funny that the ISDA negotiating role was not what I intended, but it ended up, allowing me to explore something that was interesting for me.

[00:14:56] Lara Quie: [00:14:56] So, when you finished your training contract, was there an [00:15:00] opportunity for you to qualify at Dentons in Calgary? 

[00:15:03] Daniel Lo: [00:15:03] Yes. I was lucky to get hired back into the energy transactions group. So, yeah, it worked out there. But that was also 2014 rolling into 2015 at the Eve of the oil crash. So, lucky that I got hired back. Very thankful for that, but also it wasn't the best time to be in an energy practice.

[00:15:22] Lara Quie: [00:15:22] So, I know that particular point in time you were probably looking at the future and thinking that, it wasn't the best time to be in that area of law. So, you hopped overseas again. What did you do next? 

[00:15:33] Daniel Lo: [00:15:33] At that point in time a lot of the advice that I had from my mentors was that number one, if you want to pivot internationally, you should do it when you're younger in the early days. That way, when you come back to Canada or whatever it is, you're at a mid-level to senior range. So, you can start building a book of business and you've actually developed some skills abroad and number two wise for the international pivot. For me, it was also changing practice areas because as I said, energy was going into the slump and I foresaw [00:16:00] that it wouldn't recover for some time.

[00:16:01] So, I had to make a decision to completely leave and start a new start fresh. And that's why decide Hong Kong. Because originally from Hong Kong, I didn't have to get a visa and I have a lot of family and friends there, but also, I eventually joined a private equity firm because that was an area that I saw that was actually quite hot in Asia. And I wanted to find out more about what it's like. 

[00:16:20] Lara Quie: [00:16:20] Did you feel quite a strong affinity to being Hong Kong Chinese originally? 

[00:16:25] Daniel Lo: [00:16:25] I think, yes. I think along with many other immigrants in Canada from Hong Kong, we watched a lot of TVB, which is the local channel that a lot of kind of dramas and series. So, that's how I kept my ties with Hong Kong watching these TV series. And I've always told myself that'd be great if I can live in my hometown for a bit just to soak it all in. So, I would think so, but by the time it got back to Hong Kong, I realized that my affinity was not so much with Hong Kong, but more with Canada.

[00:16:52] I started to miss Canada a lot and to associate myself as being Canadian versus as being Hong Kong. 

[00:16:56] Lara Quie: [00:16:56] That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. But generally [00:17:00] these days in Hong Kong, there's a very strong desire to have people with language skills, obviously Mandarin, but Cantonese as well. Do you have those language skills?

[00:17:09] Daniel Lo: [00:17:09] So, I have Cantonese, but only at a conversational level. Unfortunately, when I was younger, I did not like going to Chinese school on weekends. I should have done better there. Mandarin wise, not good as well, but my wife is actually Chinese, so she can speak and read and write. So, I lean on her for that expertise. 

[00:17:25] Lara Quie: [00:17:25] I see.  What happened after your move to the asset management firm?

[00:17:30] Daniel Lo: [00:17:30] Yeah, so I did that for around a year, nine months or so, and I really enjoyed it. But also, I found it really difficult because I joined as a one PQE, which is relatively junior for someone jumping in-house. So, there were a lot of things I had to learn on my own simple things like drafting board resolutions. I had no clue how to do, or even reviewing SPAs simple things that are junior at a law firm would know I had no clue. So, my mentor at that time was a 10-year PQE and then the GC was at 15 years. So, there was a massive gap [00:18:00] between a one to 10 year.

[00:18:01] Anything in between I had to pick up. So, I really lean heavily on the senior, she was great and provided me amazing guidance, but also, I had to learn on my own terminology for PE like waterfall distribution. I had no clue what that is. It just sounded like a waterfall.

[00:18:14] Lara Quie: [00:18:14] It sounds like you had a steep learning curve and you had to rely on your smarts, but you've already mentioned having mentors a couple of times. So, it sounds like mentors have played a very big part in your life, especially in your career. Tell me a bit about your mentors and actually how you established those relationships.

[00:18:31] Daniel Lo: [00:18:31] Yeah. So, my mentors actually came at different stages of my career. So, I had mentors of when I was applying to law school, I had mentors during law school and also post law school during training contract. I think many people associate mentors as being a lifelong mentor, which I don't think that's the case because sometimes the advice they give you may not be relevant to that stage of your life. And there may be someone more suitable. So, for me, I choose mentors in that sense, depending on my life stage and whether the mentor has experienced something [00:19:00] similar and also whether I can provide them with some sort of value as well.

[00:19:03] So, hopefully at this point in time in my career, if I can get back to them in some way, I always do. And I always try to keep in touch with them as well. But yeah, that's how I come about mentors in my career. 

[00:19:12] Lara Quie: [00:19:12] Sounds very strategic and you've had a very interesting career in terms of being mobile. What would you say growing up helped you establish such a willingness to step out of your comfort zone and go overseas and try new things like that?

[00:19:29] Daniel Lo: [00:19:29] I think the first experience I had with an international move was when I was doing my undergrad degree, I did a summer abroad in Australia, at the University of Sydney. And that was the first time away studying well, living abroad for that long for three months. And it was an amazing experience because first off, I realized that I knew nothing about taking care of myself.

[00:19:47] I barely knew how to cook. I dyed my clothes pink multiple times because I didn't know how to do my laundry. So, I realized, I don't know what I don't know. And, seeing the world in this kind of frame as a student really opened my eyes. There's so [00:20:00] much stuff to learn so many things, to see so many people to meet.

[00:20:03] And after I came back from Australia, I just told my parents like I'm going to pursue an international career, whatever it is, whether law or otherwise, this is something that I want to pursue as a life goal. 

[00:20:13] Lara Quie: [00:20:13] Yeah, you've certainly done that. And yeah, but let's go back to Hong Kong. And after the in-house experience, you actually moved to an offshore law firm. Tell us about, that move and what you experienced there. 

[00:20:26] Daniel Lo: [00:20:26] Yeah. So, during my time in Hong Kong, I was doing investment funds, work, direct investments, PE and I was really fascinated with investment funds. Just how they functioned in the amount of money flow that goes through these invisible structures. It's not tangible at all. So, I was really fascinated by that. And that's why a lot of the times when I was looking at the fund documents, they were all Cayman based. And that's what led me to a Cayman firm, offshore firms, because I realized that the offshore business is heavily offshore, or Cayman geared.

[00:20:53] So, that's why I eventually ended up at Walkers in Singapore. And why I ended up in Singapore is because partly because [00:21:00] Singapore is a city that I thought better suited my lifestyle at the time, a bit more relaxed a bit more clean. But I would like to do the Southeast Asia travel, that's why Singapore.

[00:21:08] And the second thing is because my wife at the time she got an INSEAD basically acceptance at the MBA school here. That's partly the reason family as well. 

[00:21:15] Lara Quie: [00:21:15] Yeah. That makes sense. And so what did you notice about the difference between Singapore and Hong Kong? 

[00:21:21] Daniel Lo: [00:21:21] To be honest, I think Hong Kong is still my favorite, but I think there's a difference in terms of Hong Kong is like a New York city to me. And Singapore is like a Dubai. So, whenever I think of Hong Kong and whenever anyone has lived in Hong Kong, they understand that the city has a sort of energy vibe and sort of culture on its own. Whereas Singapore is fantastic. It's clean. But almost sometimes too sterile. And it seems like a Dubai in the sense that it's fantastic, it's a central hub, but it's a bit sterile I can say. Yeah, I don't know. 

[00:21:51] Lara Quie: [00:21:51] I know that you're using the word clean and sterile. It's certainly very well organized and very successful in terms of [00:22:00] being a business hub for the whole of Southeast Asia. And so, I imagine the interactions that you've got around offshore funds law, et cetera was a good experience being based here. But I know that you then thought that it'd be a good idea to move in-house. So, tell me a little bit about what brought that on for you. 

[00:22:19] Daniel Lo: [00:22:19] Yeah. I think if anyone has looked at my CV or my LinkedIn, they understand that I move around a bit. And that's not because I don't like to stay where I am, but because I usually give myself 18 months to decide whether where I'm at, what I'm practicing, what I'm doing is likely to keep me there for the next three to five years. And when I realized that, and I do an active assessment on this every kind of few months. So, I don't let it slip away until I'm mid-forties kind of thing. And because of that, I actively assess my suitability. I tend to move a lot more often.

[00:22:50] So, at the 18-month mark, I realized that you know what, I really did enjoy my time in Hong Kong. Practicing in-house and asset manager. So, I thought, you know what, let's [00:23:00] pivot back in this time, maybe at an institutional bank like UBS. So, that's what kind of prompted the leap from walkers to UBS is wanting to be back into the thick of things, the commercial decisions, and transactions. 

[00:23:12] Lara Quie: [00:23:12] They say that going in-house is something that you should do at least say four five years PQE. What would you say about your current in-house experience? Do you feel that you were ready? Do you feel that four or five years is a good time? What would you advise somebody who's that sort of, mid-level associate thinking about moving in-house? 

[00:23:33] Daniel Lo: [00:23:33] I think it's completely personal to what you've learned or what kind of skills you've developed in your early years. So, if, say as a one, two PQE, you've learned quite a significant amount already, perhaps you are ready to jump in-house. But I realized that after going in-house twice. A lot of the skills that you use as an in-house counsel is not actually legal skills. It's stakeholder management, it's risk analysis. It's communications. So, it's not really [00:24:00] legal in that sense. As long as you have a general basis of legal skills, legal drafting, and research, I think an in-house career pivoting as a two, three PQE would be no problem.

[00:24:10] Lara Quie: [00:24:10] That's very interesting. And I liked the fact that you emphasized a lot of the other skills as well. And you're obviously a very good communicator and an empathetic person. So, what would you say are any additional qualities and things that people should think about if they're considering a move in-house?

[00:24:28] Daniel Lo: [00:24:28] I think some skills to keep in mind, I think is, as I said, stakeholder management because when you're in-house you are a support group, part of the legal team, but you're working with a lot of other teams, risk team, compliance, products, business, you name it. And not only within those kinds of different groups, but country-wise too, you may be dealing with compliance colleagues in Japan and not just in Singapore. So, understanding what everyone is trying to achieve and working together I think is really important. Another thing is clear communication whether it's [00:25:00] written or verbal.

[00:25:01] A lot of people expect legal to be that voice of reason. And for them to be the project manager on multiple deals or multiple work streams, even when it's not legal responsibility. So, understanding that you are the kind of end of the line. So, as long as you communicate things properly and make sure everyone's on the same page you protect yourself and also the team. 

[00:25:21] Lara Quie: [00:25:21] I noticed on LinkedIn, you posted recently some of your most used phrases in-house. And you had some good ones, so share some examples of what your daily lines are. 

[00:25:31] Daniel Lo: [00:25:31] Yeah. I actually wrote that after using some of those lines. So, a common line I use is "this sounds like a compliance matter" because many times people associate legal with compliance and a lot of them the teams, the corporate teams are legal and compliance together, but within a bank, there are separate groups that manage these things. So, a lot of the times I get compliance matters that they need me to opine on, but I had no idea what they're talking about. Another thing is "was I CC'd?" Because many times when [00:26:00] product people call me they go "Oh, did you get this email? Or are you able to opine on this matter?" I wasn't even CC'd on the original email. So, I can't see the thread. So, once again, I think people assume on deals that legal is, plugged in. But most of the time we're not. So, those are the kinds of some of the phrases I use. 

[00:26:15] Lara Quie: [00:26:15] Do you notice that sometimes you are suddenly brought in and you really have no history of the matter and you should have been CC'd all the way.  Your inbox must look like a catastrophe with all sorts going on and people CCing you here and there and not necessarily from the start. So, how'd you handle all of that? 

[00:26:33] Daniel Lo: [00:26:33] A very strict inbox clearer. So, at the end of the day, I need to have zero unread messages and I sub, categorize them and put them in folders. So, I try to keep a clean inbox, a zero inbox. So, that's how I manage. Yeah, some of the times when I don't get to these random CCS, I put into a folder, please check tomorrow. So, I make sure I don't miss anything. So, usually when I'm CC'd I will get it. But that's generally how I manage it.

[00:26:58] Lara Quie: [00:26:58] It sounds like you've got some [00:27:00] interesting work strategies. Share some of your best tips. 

[00:27:03] Daniel Lo: [00:27:03] Outlook, I think create rules for emails. So, if you get regular newsletters from perhaps the bank on diversity inclusion issues, create a sub folder for diversity and inclusion and create a rule to say any emails that come from this sender, or has this topic in the subject line, put it into this folder and that way you can store it for later and that you can search it easier as well. So, that's, I think one of the main things that saved me these past few years, it's inbox management. 

[00:27:29] Lara Quie: [00:27:29] And you say that you don't close down for the day until you've got a clean inbox, but you shared that you've got a little "to look at tomorrow box", so actually you are moving things and how big is that folder? 

[00:27:41] Daniel Lo: [00:27:41] It depends on if it's a Monday, it's, it started cumulating Wednesday. It's at its peak Friday. It's on, it's low. So, it's a peak and trough kind of system. But yes, I, as long as it's not in my main inbox, I think I'm fine. It really bugs me when it's still there and unread. 

[00:27:55] Lara Quie: [00:27:55] I used to operate a very similar process, but I must admit I've [00:28:00] totally let it go out of control. But I'm a big fan of outlook rules, definitely. That helps to clear the bulk of things that you can access when you have the time and inclination. And it does help with the overwhelmed, doesn't it?  I know that you've actually built a community and positioned yourself as a career strategist. And you're very much a mentor to younger lawyers and especially law students as well, who are looking at career paths, et cetera. Tell me a little bit about all of that.

[00:28:30] Daniel Lo: [00:28:30] Yeah. So, the things that you just mentioned are part of my, I guess like passion projects something that I felt like it was missing in my day to day as a lawyer. So, for me, it was really important. Number one, in terms of the community that we're trying to build in Singapore, it's called Legal Grounds and it's essentially a community for Singapore based lawyers and law students, but also Singapore law students and lawyers that are abroad studying abroad. That eventually want to come back or, if, even if they stay abroad, the community is meant to [00:29:00] connect everyone to encourage more collaboration than competition.

[00:29:03] So, I don't know. That's like a phrase that everyone throws out, but especially in Asia, Lara, I'm not sure if you realize, but like it's highly competitive here. And everyone is just at each other all the time. And I just felt like it was within law. It was unnecessary to practice in that way.

[00:29:17] We can all gain from helping each other and to give more than we take as well. So, I want to try this as an experiment in Singapore. I don't know if it's going to work. But I want to see if people are open to sharing their stories, sharing precedents even, or, sharing exam notes, this and that.

[00:29:33] Just to encourage more collaborative approach in studying law and also practicing law. 

[00:29:39] Lara Quie: [00:29:39] I think that competitive nature is nurtured from law school. So, many law schools will tell you your ranking and each module that you do, how you came. And certainly, local schools often highly academic and place you in rank order in your class. So, that originates from very young and continues [00:30:00] through law school. And of course, there's great competition for training contracts and everything is competitive. And even if you get a great contract, you're there competing for a job as well, because there aren't always the same number of jobs as there are trainees.

[00:30:14] And so you do tend to see your colleagues as competitors because that's the reality. So, I think there's huge amounts of competition within law and the way that law has evolved these days it’s hours based. Billing targets, everything's about targets utilization all of that stress that you get which is probably one of the reasons that you went in-house to escape that time sheet. The dreaded time sheet is a bit of a nightmare. But I'm wondering what sorts of questions are the young people asking you at the moment?  

[00:30:45] Daniel Lo: [00:30:45] I think some of the main question that they're asking is what other career paths are there for me when I graduate law school, or even after I qualify, what if I don't want to practice private practice or even go in-house? Does that mean my law degree is wasted? What do I do? We're lucky [00:31:00] to be in this generation where we have legaltech careers coming up. We have alternative legal structures coming alternative legal providers as well, like Axiom also legal design industries. These are in its infancy, but it's going to grow as we go.

[00:31:13] So, I think law students and lawyers today are lucky to have these opportunities to pursue later on. But I think, yeah, one of those things is that early-stage lawyers, one, two PQE do not want to practice anymore. What do they do right? 

[00:31:26] Lara Quie: [00:31:26] That's very much the main concern of all the larger firms: how do they retain their talent? Because there is a large number of young lawyers out there, but very few are actually seeing themselves there long-term. And as you say, there are so many other opportunities and certainly disruptive models legal tech, and I think though the fact that there's so much more variety gives people who don't want the traditional path, so many more opportunities to pursue something interesting that does appeal to them.

[00:31:58] So, coming up [00:32:00] with ways to devise technology that's going to solve legal problems things that are going to help give you a career that's a lot more flexible. You mentioned. Axiom and there's, KorumLegal and a whole bunch of Lawyers on Demand, Peerpoint that kind of model means that lawyers are taking their careers into their own hands for a change.

[00:32:21] And I think that the career path had been very straightforward before you used to take a training contract and then you'd be offered a job and you'd qualify into the area that you wanted. And you'd sit there until about eight or nine years PQE and then you'd be offered partnership and wow, it was supposed to be the sunny uplands, and it was all going to be great.

[00:32:40] The reality is completely different. As we know, partnership before 12, 13 years. Virtually unheard of a very big struggle very difficult and definitely having things like international experience, in-house experience all of these kinds of things add up to a very strong [00:33:00] background to give you the things that you require these days to be a partner. So, what particular skills do you think lawyers of the future are going to need? 

[00:33:08] Daniel Lo: [00:33:08] I think lawyers of the future and already some lawyers now have been adopting more of a technological acumen. So, I think what that means is it doesn't mean that you need to know how to code, although Harvard is teaching their law students how to code in the first year.

[00:33:22] But I think understanding how technology will play into your legal practice, whether it's in-house or private practice, but being open to it, being open to innovation. To say even if you haven't been using say like a shared drive, like a Dropbox or whatever, try to transition that from your local C drive.

[00:33:37] Small little innovations like that to adopt technology, to make it easier for you to practice. I think that's one thing. And I think all future lawyers now are, everyone's on Tik TOK and all these kinds of apps and social media stuff. So, I think that's one thing. Technology acumen, second thing is also embracing, personal branding and also understanding the power of these recent kind of influencer waves. [00:34:00] So, yourself, I would say you're a massive influencer and I follow you all your podcasts and all your content. So, you're seeing that a lot of the times personal branding is associated to yourself as Lara or Daniel, not really to the law firm you belong to or the company, which wasn't the case back in the day. Back in the day, you introduced herself as "Hi, I'm the UBS lawyer and my name is Daniel", nowadays it's more, "Hi, I'm Daniel. This is what I'm doing on my side, this and that, I'm also a lawyer at UBS.

[00:34:27] So, I think this is going a long way and I'm sure everyone knows Alex Su on LinkedIn and also on Tik TOK. No one has ever thought that lawyers can make it on Tik TOK, which is an app basically for, more kiddies. But I think he's showing the power of being an influencer and how it can impact your practice and how you can develop that further.

[00:34:44] Lara Quie: [00:34:44] Absolutely. And it's such a great opportunity for young lawyers who can harness the building of their brand right from the beginning. So, it's never too early to get on LinkedIn and start to build that network. Even if you do it very slowly. [00:35:00] But it's recognizing that this is a long game. And if you start now let's say you're a university doing law at Birmingham.

[00:35:07] And you hear this, get on LinkedIn, put your profile up there. Don't be afraid that there's nothing much on there. Just law student. That's okay because over the years, LinkedIn itself, the algorithm will recognize how long you have been there. And they'll say this is a mover and a shaker.

[00:35:24] This is somebody that is sharing original content, connecting with others, adding value, et cetera. So, tell me a bit about your LinkedIn experience. Cause I know that you're a very avid user and you're leveraging it very well. 

[00:35:37] Daniel Lo: [00:35:37] Yeah, I hope I'm providing actually good content. I'm not sure these days I've been slowing down. But I really only started posting heavily on LinkedIn last year during COVID during March or April when I realized that we're entering this kind of global financial crisis. And some are saying that it's probably bigger than 2008. So, I remember how I was in London getting all these rejections because of the financial [00:36:00] crisis and I thought there are many out there just like me, if not more law students nowadays that are, looking for training contracts and can't even get a paralegal role? So, how can I help them? Yeah. I had someone help me in the past maybe I would have got something. Maybe I got some confidence back who knows, but that's what I started to write about my story. Write about my failures, but what I've learned from it, and also the skills I picked up along the way as a junior lawyer. So, that content really resonated with the law students, because a lot of the internships or vac schemes were canceled. So, they had no idea of what corporate law was. 

[00:36:33] So, providing this kind of insight was actually valuable to them. And I would start setting up a calls one-on-one to talk to them about their careers and talk about why they wanted to practice corporate law. Why do they want big law? Is it just because your law school is pushing it, but why do the motivations behind why you're doing this?

[00:36:48] And that has snowballed to today where I consistently post about tips for young lawyers and law students, and also just motivational content really. 

[00:36:57] Lara Quie: [00:36:57] And it's such a great platform.  And I [00:37:00] love how you've harnessed Mighty Networks for your Legal Grounds and built that community. There's so many notice boards within there in different groups for the topics and people can share challenges, they can share questions that they need answering. And I know that you've organized a meetup for, an actual social, so some in-person networking. And so what's the future for Legal Grounds?

[00:37:23] Daniel Lo: [00:37:23] I would love for LegalGrounds to pick up and have more engagement. I think natural engagement for people to start calling each other out for coffee or asking each other questions, uncomfortable questions even, or even people sharing their stories, whether it was successes or failures. I actually think that the failures are more interesting because it shows your character what you've been through, the grit and resilience.

[00:37:45] But once again in Asia, I think there's a bit of a conservatism and a bit of protectionism here. So, I would like for the community in Singapore to break out of that mold to say, it's okay to be empathetic and to be vulnerable. I think it's a good thing to have, [00:38:00] especially as a leader. So, that's my hope for the community here in Singapore.

[00:38:04] Lara Quie: [00:38:04] You're right to focus on the fear of failure mindset. It is huge in Asia, obviously many people have it all over the world, but it's particularly pronounced where people are viewed as extremely successful, and they will view themselves very harshly. And so that's one of the main reasons that I also started the Legal Genie podcast, because I really wanted to give people a window into the many career paths and many career opportunities that exist within the legal ecosystem. There are many different things that you can do within it. And any degree is useful for things, but certainly law with the critical thinking and understanding the letter of the law is such a wonderful, fundamental basis for business generally. And so, it's never a waste of time. But it's a good foundation and hopefully young people will view it as a great opportunity to launch themselves into whatever it is piques their interest once they get to know more. So, hopefully [00:39:00] listening to many podcasts, there's so many fantastic legal podcasts out there learning about people's journeys, hearing insights from established leaders and people with all of these different kinds of careers like yours. It's very interesting what you've done, Daniel.

[00:39:14] And I think it's really admirable how you're giving back to the community because you appreciated the various struggles that you faced throughout your career. And probably had lots of great mentors it sounds like, but for people who haven't got access to mentors, they can tune in and join your community and listen to this podcast here and learn so much more. So, where can people connect with you at the moment?

[00:39:37] Daniel Lo: [00:39:37] I'm predominantly on LinkedIn. Do search Daniel Lo and I'm there. But you can also find me quite active on Legal Grounds, which is at www.legalgrounds.asia. It's free to join. So, do join us there. As you said, we do weekly meetups on Zoom, but also, we try to do in-person meetups because I think people are getting a little Zoomed out these days. So, we're trying to mix it up a little bit. 

[00:39:58] Lara Quie: [00:39:58] That sounds fantastic. You've been a [00:40:00] great guest. I'm sure that lots of people have found your career journey really interesting. So, thank you for being on the podcast, Daniel Lo. 

[00:40:07] Daniel Lo: [00:40:07] Appreciate that. Thank you, Lara. 

[00:40:09]

[00:40:09] Lara Quie: [00:40:09] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode of the Legal Genie Podcast, please go to Apple Podcasts, and give it a rating and review to help others. Find it. Please do subscribe so that you don't miss the next exciting episode of the Legal Genie Podcast. Thanks for listening. Have a magical week ahead.

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