The Legal Genie Podcast

Being a Tech Evangelist with Giles Thompson of Avvoka - Episode 11

May 19, 2021 Giles Thompson Season 2 Episode 11
The Legal Genie Podcast
Being a Tech Evangelist with Giles Thompson of Avvoka - Episode 11
Show Notes Transcript

This week in Episode 11 of the Legal Genie podcast, your host, Lara Quie is in conversation with legal tech evangelist, Giles Thompson of document automation, negotiation and analytics company, Avvoka. It has offices based in London and Singapore. 

As Avvoka's Head of Growth based in London, Giles works with leading law firms, in-house legal teams, and businesses to help them draft documents, negotiate them, and leverage data insights from that process to draft better documents, and get to “yes” faster.

He also spends lots of time designing and creating bespoke document automation solutions for clients and making Avvoka’s core product offering better for users.

Before joining Avvoka, Giles worked as a city lawyer at Herbert Smith Freehills and Kirkland & Ellis and also has in-house experience working for BP’s in-house legal team and in the regulatory division of PAX Labs.

 

In this episode Giles shares:

·         His childhood growing up on a farm in Norfolk.

·         His degree at Bristol University and why he chose to go into law.

·         How he reached out to people asking for their advice.

·         His experience of law school.

·         His legal training contract at Herbert Smith Freehills in London and how he managed dyslexia and dyspraxia.

·         Doing a 6-month secondment at BP in their technology, media, and telecoms division. 

·         What he qualified into and why.

·         His time as an associate in the intellectual property group. 

·         How legal technology first entered his universe and how he saw himself being able to add value.

·         His role as Head of Growth at Avvoka.

·         About the Avvokka Academy and why it was setup. 

·         How small and mid-sized law firms and in-house teams can take their first steps into document automation.

·         What his dream is for legal documentation automation. 

Learn more about Giles Thompson:

You can connect with Giles here: 

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/gilesathompson

https://avvoka.com/

Also:

·         If you liked this episode, please rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

·         Look out for the next episode coming soon.

You can connect with Lara Quie as follows:

·         On LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie

·         Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

·         If you have a question or guest idea, please do drop Lara a line at Lara@LaraQAssociates.com

 

 

 

 

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

Also:

· If you liked this episode, please rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

· Look out for the next episode coming soon.

You can connect with Lara Quie:

· On LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie

· Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

· Or Email at Lara@LaraQAssociates.com

Transcript Legal Genie Podcast Episode 11 with Giles Thompson of Avvoka

 [00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for joining me, Lara Quie, for the Legal Genie Podcast. As a former corporate lawyer and APAC Head of Business Development for an international law firm, my mission with this podcast is to provide you with insights into the careers and lives of movers and shakers in the legal industry. 

[00:00:40] Mentors are hard to come by So, by listening to these conversations, I hope that you will gain some valuable insights that will help you move forward in your career and personal life. I ask my guests to share their advice and experience with you. I ask them also to share about their mindset. As an executive coach, [00:01:00] I work one-on-one with lawyers to grow their practice and self-confidence. I also run mastermind groups and business development accelerators designed to bring like-minded people together, to learn, grow, and support each other. 

[00:01:13] If you'd like to learn more, please connect with me on LinkedIn or through my website. The details are in the show notes. Please rate and review the Legal Genie Podcast to help us reach more people who may find it helpful. So, let's move on to this week's episode. I hope that you enjoy the conversation.   

[00:01:37] Lara Quie: [00:01:37] Hello, and welcome to episode 11 of the legal genie podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. This episode, I'm delighted to have on the show, tech evangelist, Giles Thompson, of document automation, negotiation and analytics company Avvoka. It has offices based in London and also here in Singapore. 

[00:01:58] As Avvoka's Head of Growth, based [00:02:00] in London, Giles works with leading law firms, in-house legal teams and businesses to help them draft documents, negotiate them and leverage data insights from that process to draft better documents and get to "yes" faster. 

[00:02:13] He also spends lots of time designing and creating bespoke document automation solutions for clients and making Avvoka's core product offering better for users. Before joining Avvoka, Giles worked as a city solicitor at Herbert Smith Freehills and Kirkland & Ellis and also has in-house experience working for BP's in-house legal team and in the regulatory division of PAX labs. 

[00:02:39] Hi, Giles and welcome to the Legal Genie Podcast. 

[00:02:42] Giles Thompson: [00:02:42] Hi, Lara. Yeah. Thank you very much for having me and yeah, it's nice to be in Singapore, for my second meeting of the morning albeit I'm glad that I'm not in the room that you're in, it looks a bit treacherous. 

[00:02:53] Lara Quie: [00:02:53] That's right. We're experiencing a very significant thunderstorm with lightning and [00:03:00] crashing. If the listeners do hear a bit of sound effects, it is because of the storm in the background. And I don't think I'm good enough to edit that out, but never mind, we shall keep it raw and real and proceed, nevertheless. I know a little bit about you in terms of knowing that tractors were quite a part of your childhood. So, tell me a little bit about your background and where you grew up. 

[00:03:25] Giles Thompson: [00:03:25] I'm in rural Norfolk on the East coast of the UK and that's where I grew up. So, yeah, my first working experience was I drove a tractor for seven seasons on our family farm. Mainly corn and potatoes. And that's funnily enough, what I used in my city law job interviews. I said I worked 15-hour days for two or three months in a row with no weekends.

[00:03:46] So, I think I can hack the hard work here. What I didn't realize is sometimes, in big law you have to do 16, 17-hour days. But yeah, that sort of taught me my work ethic. And actually, I'm doing quite a bit of that thing at the moment, actually at the weekends.  Myself and my [00:04:00] partner have bought a derelict barn, which, I'm driving a JCB around landscaping at the weekend. Keeping my mind occupied during lockdown. 

[00:04:07] Lara Quie: [00:04:07] That sounds like a very exciting project, and lovely to be in open countryside during this strange time that we're living in. So, , what is it that made you decide that you wanted to perhaps go into the law?

[00:04:21] Giles Thompson: [00:04:21] Great question. To be honest, I hadn't really considered it and it's just not something that people really do I make it sound like I live in the middle of the desert or something, but truly that isn't sort of high street lawyers and things around here, but the nearest city is about an hour and a half - Norwich. And a few people go into law, but it wasn't really a big thing, even though I went to a brilliant school. Really, I think it was technology that drove me towards it. Truly, So, I've always been interested in technology. I think. like So, many other people that the magic of the iPhone in 2007 or whatever it was made me think, gosh, I really want to understand what's going on within the technology here.

[00:04:55] Even though I'm not necessarily the best computer scientist and I wanted to be involved in [00:05:00] those teams, which were bringing that kind of thing to market. And So, I thought I'm pretty, rubbish at maths. I'm not that interested in staring at a screen and doing coding, I think.

[00:05:08] So, there was a stat I read the other day, Lara saying, if you were a brilliant programmer, you were about 2000 times more productive than an average one. And So, I saw their stats and I thought I'm never going to be that amazing programmer, but I thought actually law, is a fantastic route to go into if you want to meet these geniuses. I went to Herbert Smith Freehills, worked across cybersecurity tech transactions. That's why I spent some time at BP in house. I actually worked a little bit for the charge master team there doing sort of electric vehicles, but also generally supporting a lot of that software procurement.

[00:05:40] And then I ultimately went and did IP litigation at Kirkland. And I really enjoyed just meeting people at the real, by definition, cutting edge of what's possible in technology. But the call got a bit too strong to go and do some of that myself. So, that's how I ended up at Avvoka and, a little bit of that was also led a large amount of that was led by some of my frustrations with the [00:06:00] practice of law and actually hopes for how people in my kind of position could have even more enjoyable roles. 

[00:06:05] Lara Quie: [00:06:05] Yeah. So, it sounds like you were very much interested in the technology side even before you went to university. But I know that you went to study politics and international relations. So, if you already knew that you wanted to do that side of the technology and the mix of the law, what was it that led you to do that degree?

[00:06:24] Giles Thompson: [00:06:24] I dunno, really if I'm honest. I think it was, I just thought life's too short, not to do things you're passionate about and things that you enjoy and find interesting. And in truth, my politics and international relations degree has been pretty unhelpful in my career beyond some of the soft skills I got from it, but I was just, I've always been interested in political science. And actually, what I specialized in was the way that politicians use dress. So, I actually wrote my thesis on Jacob Zuma and all of his different sort of characters and personas that he portrays. And I basically the question I had, but this is actually just, this is before the whole Donald Trump [00:07:00] thing.

[00:07:00] I thought how is it that these idiots get into power regardless of what they say or do? And yeah, I looked at the performances of what they do. And I found that a really interesting thing to do as well, but actually, even this morning, I was chatting to a sustainable development bank who give loans to companies that are doing great things, improving the environment, empowering women by helping them start careers in developing parts of the world.

[00:07:22] I’ve ended up using some of this stuff, but honestly it was just a really great enriching experience and I recommend to anyone. And actually, I think this is one of those things. I've always thought that your imagination is always inherently limited to the sum of your previous experiences.

[00:07:37] It's always a sort of what you can imagine your future as being is a pastiche. So, I just went and did politics. Cause I thought I'd enjoy it. I keep lots of doors open and then sure enough, I got to university was exposed to all these far more diverse people than me and other ideas. And then a few of them were kind enough to drag me along to some of these open days for law. And I thought, oh, actually this might be my foot in the door. When it comes to technology, I don't know what your [00:08:00] experiences have been, Lara, whether you thought you didn't end up doing what you're doing always, or whether that there were any sort of consistent threads through.

[00:08:06] Lara Quie: [00:08:06] Definitely. I think when I was a trainee, there's no way that I would have imagined that I'd end up doing what I do now in terms of my consulting and executive coaching. I definitely wasn't aware that was even a thing. Yeah, you're right.  Your world, as you grow up is very much formed by your immediate experience.

[00:08:26] And people do open your eyes to things. And So, I'm wondering whether there were any solicitors or lawyers generally in your world, as you were growing up that you looked up to, or that had that sort of influence on you? 

[00:08:40] Giles Thompson: [00:08:40] Great. Yeah. Good question. When I was looking around for stuff, there was one of my friend's mum was as a divorce lawyer. I definitely saw the fact there was a lot of arguing involved that, to be honest, the divorce law or family law never appealed to me because I'm not that good at dealing with highly emotional people and understandably, there's a lot of highly emotional people in that area. [00:09:00] But yeah, the people, I ended up getting introduced to it. I just went on the internet and reached out to people randomly and said you seem like you've practiced law and you're now in technology.

[00:09:08] And so, I had some really great conversations, and I was really pleasantly surprised by the people I reached out to and said basically, "I don't have any of my own connections, would you speak to me?" And 80% of people were really happy doing that. And I met a lot of people actually, who sit in that space between they're not practicing lawyers anymore, but they do a lot of that kind of operational side of tech businesses. So, I met a lot of people who are inspirational in that area and actually particularly in media. So, I met with, I actually met with a few people in the Global legal team the big media conglomerate that does Capital FM and that kind of thing.

[00:09:37] And they were very inspirational, but yeah, I think it was just, yeah, just the case of reaching out to people and people are very kind when you're honest and you explain why you're interested in what they do. I find. 

[00:09:47] Lara Quie: [00:09:47] Yeah, I love that, that you took that initiative and that you were very interested, and you reached out to people and you asked them for their experience, et cetera, because I think that many younger people are very nervous about [00:10:00] doing that and they're shy. But at the same time, your positive experience just shows how willing people really are. And especially because they're often passionate about what they do. And they love to share that with others who are also interested. So, I would definitely recommend to any young person considering different things to always reach out to someone. You might catch someone on a bad day and that's unlucky, but the majority of times, most people are really willing to help.

[00:10:27] And So, that's great that you did that. And so, let's talk about law school. So, you went to BPP for two years. What was that experience like? And what do you feel about the curriculum that they're offering in relation to technology? 

[00:10:40] Giles Thompson: [00:10:40] Gosh firstly I really enjoyed it. I think, the way that in the UK you qualify as a lawyer. I think it's really good from it and by the way, it's changing. So, there's gonna be the SQE and the solicitors super exam and things and to be honest, I'm not educated enough to really understand how that's going to affect things. I think it's going to make life easier for highly experienced paralegals [00:11:00] and give them the acknowledgement that they are frankly, better and more experienced than a lot of solicitors out there.

[00:11:05] So, I think that's going to be really interesting, but in terms of my experience, I actually had a great time. Cause Herbert Smith Freehills, who I trained with, they actually put us in a conglomerate of four other law firms. I basically came from uni at Bristol. We all got parachuted into London and went through law school for two years and actually got bunched in with people at other law firms, which I thought was a really great thing because I'm not the most terribly competitive person, but there's always that slight edge.

[00:11:28] When you're just in with your intake and it can get a little bit competitive and, I guess everybody's competing for the same roles eventually on qualification, but actually being mixed in with others just made the environment that much better. And you could have those agony aunt or agony uncle conversations with people who weren't necessarily in the exact same situation as you. In terms of technology, there really wasn't any specific coverage of technology. Actually, a lot of it was about getting us through as quickly as possible. So, actually I did the GDL in I think about eight or nine months. And then I did the LPC, which is the next stage in about seven months.

[00:11:59] And I think it's, [00:12:00] generally people can take up to three or four years for that. So, the aim was definitely get us through and get us on real transactions. It was definitely a good experience. Definitely a good parachute in, and I think just to elaborate a little bit on the point I was making before, Lara, I think one reasons why I'm So, glad I did that. I spoke to So, many people before I entered law and I think until you're you step out of that private practice sort of pyramid.  You don't know that there are So, many other lawyers out there and you don't know that most people don't stay in private practice all the way through. It's a pyramid shape and there's So, many people doing, really interesting things outside. So, I found it really useful to go into that, go into law school, go into practice, knowing that there were loads of other amazing routes that were either there already or being formed, literally as we trained. So, I think meeting other people and seeing what they did as well was a really great experience. 

[00:12:46] Lara Quie: [00:12:46] Yeah. And my time, which is a long time ago there really was only in my world, big law, we were all just farmed from Oxford and we went to Guilford college of law, and then we [00:13:00] went to a big city firm. And So, I trained at Dentons. And it didn't seem like there were all these other options. And that's why I'm very passionate about my podcast here and being able to expose younger people to all of the possibilities that there are within law. So, I, myself came out of law, but I found that there are So, many different roles that one can play within the legal ecosystem. And this is what this podcast demonstrates. And that's why I invite people like you, Giles, to open people's eyes to the possibilities that if you like law, it doesn't mean that you have to be a solicitor. You can be in legal technology; you can be a pricing expert. You can be doing business development, which is what I do. So, there's things like that. And it's just really great to see all of the different options that there are these days that there certainly weren't, in my day when I was a trainee.  

[00:13:55] Giles Thompson: [00:13:55] I think the other thing is in, in big law, I feel like you have to love it a [00:14:00] hundred percent, 110%. And I think there's a lot of people who are in that environment who perhaps love law about 80, 90%. And, at 11:00 PM on a Friday on, your partner's birthday or something when you're sat in the office, I think you really do have to have that extra set of 10% of love for it.

[00:14:17] But I think there's a lot of areas like the one I'm in where you can love law, 80, 90% have that empathy for the people who are in it. But actually, there's other things that really interests you as well, which you consider, make up that final percentage with. 

[00:14:29] Lara Quie: [00:14:29] And you mentioned how competitive it was at law school and certainly within the training contract and qualifying at your firm. So, there's definitely a very competitive environment within law that makes it quite difficult. And you just mentioned empathy, having empathy and many law firms are actually difficult places for people with empathy. It's very urgent driven, the hours can be really brutal. A lot of people, a bit brusque, many of the lawyers just don't have time to sit there [00:15:00] and be kind to you and talk to you about all of the intricacies of the deal. How do you think it sounds like you're quite an empathetic person. How did you handle that environment? 

[00:15:10] Giles Thompson: [00:15:10] The irony is with empathy. I didn't experience much in the way of shouting or anything like that. But when somebody is maybe a bit short with you or doesn't necessarily give you the time of day that they should necessarily and I do you stress that actually Herbert Smith Freehills was a wonderful place to train and truly their reputation for having good people is justified and yeah, I would always just look at it from an empathetic perspective, be like how much sleep has this person had. And then at that point you feel a little bit better about the fact that they might be a little bit grumpy. So, that's how I dealt with that. I think also just leveling with people and also making sure I reached out to them to show that I was a human being as well.

[00:15:46] This is where I feel a huge amount for the junior lawyers here who are just moving into the sort of situation that I was in, because if I ever had a concern or if I felt like I wasn't doing a very good job on something, or there was something I wasn't learning or something I want more exposure [00:16:00] to, I'd say, " please, may we go for a coffee?"

[00:16:02] And I'd say "Look, I've been feeling a little bit like I'm not being appreciated on this, So, I'm not gaining enough of this skill. "And people have been in those shoes and good people will recognize that and help you. But I do feel like everything over being over calls like this or over email it's just a little bit more transactional.

[00:16:18] It's been really heartening actually, because I've had a lot of more senior lawyers saying, I frankly I'd love to just stay in Surrey and spend more time with my children. But actually, I feel a bit of a responsibility to go back into the office and make sure that we're coaching these juniors.

[00:16:31] And actually I've also heard it from people who were in the middle of their l egal career. So, maybe they're of counsel or junior partners, and they're hoping that the really senior partners in private practice or indeed in house leaders as well, come in a bit more and do some of that more social, empathetic stuff as well.

[00:16:47] So, yeah, that's how I dealt with that. But I think it is actually a lot harder now at the moment. And I think it will continue to remain a little bit harder with the hybrid ways of working. 

[00:16:55] Lara Quie: [00:16:55] Yeah, it's a very good point about how things have become rather transactional. And I [00:17:00] think you raised a valid point about the fact that if people are not together, they're not able to learn by osmosis as it were. And the training structure has in the UK always been very much a trainee sitting with a partner and just listening, absorbing and seeing what's going on.

[00:17:17] And that model certainly was a very good one. But obviously in this situation it's very challenging. And I think that existing relationships that were strong already have been fine, and they fared okay. Over zoom, et cetera. But where you're being brought in for a very first time in a working environment, it must be exceedingly challenging.

[00:17:37] I have huge sympathy for any young person trying to do their training contract or, you know, all of the fun stuff. It was all about work hard, play hard. And at the moment it's all the work hard, no play. And that sounds very dull indeed to me. I do hope that young people will definitely be able to get back on track to what a training contract of old, certainly looked like. And I think that when you mention [00:18:00] the more senior lawyers, again, the role as a senior lawyer, and certainly becoming a partner, which is all about relationships and management and nurturing and, coaching your juniors those things are very different when you're doing that virtually. So, yes, we definitely need to return to the office. 

[00:18:18] So, I'm wondering about you said that you were pretty driven by the desire to be in technology, et cetera. And then you were at Herbert Smith Freehills doing your training contract. What did you pick in your traineeship that was going to set you on that path to support that interest in technology?

[00:18:36] Giles Thompson: [00:18:36] I think the lawyers who have that kind of interest at the moment are spoilt for choice actually. And actually, I swear tech is creeping into So, many more elements of what practice areas law firms do because law firms are getting wise.  I think they've known this for a long time, and they've been acting on it for a long time, but that the best clients to be getting on board are tech companies, because you don't even need to acquire new clients.

[00:18:56] They're just going to grow So, fast that your, the size of your business, six expands. And [00:19:00] this is what we're seeing, even at Avvoka, what all of our clients are extremely valuable. But if you land a scale up in the tech area they might grow. 10 20, 30 times in a matter of months.

[00:19:10] So, that's amazing. Where I landed was intellectual property and I did quite a bit on cybersecurity and software litigation and that kind of thing that interested me most first off, I just think the fact that copyright is what dictates software is So, fun.

[00:19:25] Cause obviously the history of that is books and things. And I just think that analogy I've just always found that really interesting. Instead of how copyright adapts going forward. The other thing I did just loved was interviewing people about the novelty of their idea.

[00:19:39] So, you'd literally get to sit down with those experts and even at quite a junior level, interrogate them about their ideas. And actually, you're basically you're learning, aren't you? You're trying to figure out You know how to explain the concept in basic terms, how to understand it, even though it's super complex and then try and articulate that to a judge who, probably has heard of similar concepts, but may not [00:20:00] have particularly where in the IP courts there, aren't a huge amount of IP specialist judges now. So, I really enjoyed that.  So, I stayed doing it forever and I could definitely see myself going back one day, but I think now maybe I'm pre-supposing one of your later questions, but what I quite quickly realized was it was too tempting, being around hearing people's war stories to think maybe I could have a few war stories of my own. But actually, another thing I saw was that a lot of this stuff, I was really enjoying was having those conversations really engaging and investing time in the clients. But also, our key witnesses and things, but I realized that actually a huge amount of what I did was also manual.

[00:20:37] And actually. I guess, clerical in nature as well. Proofreading drafting, relatively standard form documentation. And there was definitely a lot of that sort of critical thinking and Herbert Smith Freehills is known for that in litigation, but I thought that could always be a little bit more.

[00:20:51] And ultimately, I saw Herbert Smith Freehills particularly is a very tech enabled law firm. And I saw technology getting incorporated in to more and more of [00:21:00] what I did. And actually, I was still doing the majority of that clerical work within the team. And I just felt like I was getting quite good at that. But actually, that wasn't going to necessarily serve me well in the future. So, that's part of why I wanted to jump over as well. 

[00:21:14] Lara Quie: [00:21:14] And So, you qualified into the IP group. But then you later left and moved to Kirkland & Ellis? 

[00:21:21] Giles Thompson: [00:21:21] Yeah. So, I actually moved over for qualification actually. And the reason for that was I wanted to there was a particular focus at the Kirkland & Ellis team on technology patents. And there certainly is that kind of focus at Herbert Smith Freehills, but they are largely focused on the sort of chemistry and pharma side there as well.

[00:21:38] Albeit at Kirkland they have a lot of that too. So, yeah but I did a very similar thing there albeit, it was a slightly leaner team.  

[00:21:45] Lara Quie: [00:21:45] What was the thing that prompted you to actually decide to leave private practice and to join Avvoka? 

[00:21:52] Giles Thompson: [00:21:52] So, it's quite personal actually. I'm someone with dyslexia and dyspraxia and what I found was a lot of what I was doing was, these manual and slightly [00:22:00] clerical processes, I was finding that I was increasingly automating those in what I did because my brain has this. Yeah, it will spontaneously make an error. I might type a word three or four times. I guess it's almost like a glitch or I'll misspell things, or I'll spell a word backwards or something bizarre like that. And what I found is it never really held me back in private practice, but it was only because I was creating processes which prevented error.

[00:22:23] And then I realized what actually, all lawyers should be doing this and all lawyers should have these kinds of processes and software available to them. And then I saw that, no one was really solving this except for a few firms and I'd come across sort of legacy tools for document automation and document generation and negotiation and this kind of thing before.

[00:22:40] But I hadn't seen them work really intuitively and in a way that any lawyer could just pick up and start marking up their template contract in their kind of lawyer language and then create an automatically generating template. And there were tools out there which I've utilized before, but I thought until lawyers could actually pick those up and use them like consumer software they were never going to get [00:23:00] mass adoption.

[00:23:00] And I basically wanted to bring what I was doing. So, implementing technology and automating as a skill and as a tool. And that sort of my practitioner's toolset, I want to bring that to every lawyer say at the moment we, we all have the skills of delegation. So, being able to pick the right person to do a piece of work, we know how to collaborate among the firm.

[00:23:18] We also know how to choose which work needs to be outsourced. And we do know how to use technology for things like due diligence and for contract review. But I felt like that wasn't. And there still isn't enough utilization of document generation automation. And So, let's say you have to, I don't know, send out 500 notices or you need to repay per 500 learned documents.

[00:23:38] Enough of the time. So, we aren't using automation to remedy those situations enough at the time. So, for me, I saw Avvoka was doing that and there's one or two other firms who we compete with, who tried to do a seminar thing as well. And I thought this is an area that I could certainly add value.

[00:23:53] And then actually I could make people's lives more interesting as well, because of course the other flip side of it, Lara is a lot of the time [00:24:00] being in the office late and away from your friends and family and all the rest of it is avoidable. And I think law firms can make similar revenue if not more revenue by being more efficient in certain ways and serving more clients and bringing legal services to more people and basically just creating more value and making it So, that their lawyers get more skilled, more quickly and enjoy their jobs more. So, maybe I'm a bit of a utopian. But this is what we're trying to achieve. 

[00:24:26] Lara Quie: [00:24:26] I liked your vision and I like the fact that you had very personal reasons for developing these hacks as it were right to counter the challenges that you faced.

[00:24:38] And certainly you hear about people, for example, who are completely illiterate, but they can go through their entire life with nobody actually realizing, because they're So, clever in, all the work rounds. And So, I can see that where your, at the coalface doing all of the as you said, rather clerical jobs, but [00:25:00] seeing the repetition over and over and saying for goodness sake, you know, I have just done the same thing 10 times.

[00:25:05] Why can't this be done with the click of one button that just puts it all in. Just one go and that would save So, much time and effort. And So, I think it is very much at the more junior end where the innovation can come, because that is where you're really seeing that. Obviously the more senior the lawyer gets, they're doing much more complex things and it's a lot more on the creative side, et cetera.

[00:25:29] So, the likelihood of repetition is definitely reduced. But where you've got things, like you mentioned loan agreements or anything like that, that can be standardized. Certainly, insurance policies you've imagined our insurance policies, any sort of a policy or anything where the content is pretty standardized apart from a few tweaks, just to personalize it to the individual, et cetera.

[00:25:53] They lend themselves So, beautifully for this kind of thing. But one thing I'm worried about with law firms and lawyers [00:26:00] is that many of them are actually not that technologically competent. So, I know that you've got a special academy. Tell me a bit about the Avvoka Academy and what you're trying to do with that.

[00:26:15] Giles Thompson: [00:26:15] I'd absolutely love to, just before I do, I'm actually going to make the point that not everybody needs to be the most tech savvy, and actually not in a lot of these teams. Not everybody needs to be a lawyer. There, I said it . There's value that other people can bring to a lot of these transactions and they're absolutely fantastic for supporting lawyers. So, I guess the first caveat I'll say is, the way that we've approached it, at Avvoka is not the only answer. And I hope that it's refreshing that I'm admitting that, but absolutely you could have multidisciplinary teams who can make up for perhaps deficiencies that some lawyers in a team have, but yeah, So, saving for that what we have is we have an Avvoka Academy, So, in an hour and a half long session, what we do is we get students associates, GCs, partners, whomever to come along and we [00:27:00] give them a login for Avvoka and we say let's take a standard form contract and let's upload it together and designate the parts of that contract or document which need to be custom every time we're drafting a new version of it.

[00:27:13] So, that might be something as basic as the party names, which is just effectively glorified form filling or it might be something as complicated as all of the provisions that relate to a fixed interest on a loan agreement, for example, and all of those provisions, which relate to floating interest and we hinge which of those get dropped into our particular document based upon an answer to a questionnaire. So, is the exchange rate fixed or floating? So, this kind of thing, and we teach people how to do this in an hour and a half but then people can go away with the automation skills that they've learned and automate their own documents for a few weeks afterwards.

[00:27:47] And I have to say the students pick it up really quickly for sure. But actually, you'd be hopefully pleasantly surprised that, frankly, anybody who goes through with an open mind does seem to get it straight away and [00:28:00] actually having that legal experience as well obviously it makes life a lot easier because I think that the sort of thing that nobody talks about in our area is it's all very well being able to simply designate and actually create that automation part. And we think we've made that as quick and as efficient and as lawyer / just customer centric as we possibly can.

[00:28:19] But actually the thing before that is where the work happens, which is actually figuring out what document you want to automate. So, maybe you have four versions of an NDA. You need to actually consolidate those together and figure out what your sort of combined NDA looks like. Just to use a really simple example there.

[00:28:37] And actually the lawyer is really required to do some thinking beyond the technology technological stuff in terms of thinking about how do we want to present this questionnaire to the end user as well. So, obviously fixed or floating that's a pretty simple question, but actually sometimes we need, the most important thing is how we're answering asking that particular question and thinking about what's the minimum number of questions we could ask to get us to the same place. So, there’s [00:29:00] always that bit of thinking that goes on in the background as well. So, yeah, the Avvoka Academy is our Kickstarter to raise the evangelize earlier about the benefits of document automation and actually dispel some of the myths because some of the legacy software, which has made it a popular concept has done a lot of good, but they've also made people are a little bit scared. I think sometimes of document automation, So, trying to make people a little bit less concerned about the fact that it's going to take over their life and not work properly. 

[00:29:29] Lara Quie: [00:29:29] Yes, it's So, important that it's intuitive. Cause I think you mentioned that word earlier. People are very sophisticated when it comes to their phones now using apps and all sorts of things. And the ability to almost game-ify a document is quite appealing I can imagine. And So, the young people who've grown up with this sort of technology at their fingertips, from birth, they are definitely going to be very at home dealing with this kind of technology and I can imagine that trainees, [00:30:00] if brought into a firm where your technology's already there on hand and they're told, this is what we use for our loan agreements. They wouldn't have any trouble getting used to that and using it very quickly. So, what I'm wondering though, is, how do you persuade the firms that this is the right time and the right product for them to invest in? Because I think it's always that challenge. Isn't it? To get those skeptical lawyers show them the evidence to get them to really sign up. 

[00:30:32] Giles Thompson: [00:30:32] Yeah, no, that's a great question. I'm just going to build on what you were just saying before. I think when you asked me earlier, why I made the jump, I think one of the pieces of feedback I received back when I was in practice made me realize maybe I should make the jump, which was, Yeah, the feedback was along the lines of why do you always try and find like a different answer?

[00:30:51] Why do you always over-complicate the way that we achieve things? And I thought I'm not a fusser, I'm really, I'm quite a snap decision maker, impulsive. You might even [00:31:00] say. So, I wasn't, the fact I was dawdling over work. It was often I'd try and take a step back without too jargony and trying to figure out if the way we were doing something was the right way of doing it.

[00:31:10] And whether we could maybe do it in a more. Not even more efficient, but maybe more repeatable way. And So, I think. For me that's where a lot of trainees can bring value to their firms. So, this is, the point that you're making around more junior people a bit maybe take to this stuff quick.

[00:31:26] I think that's a real opportunity for junior lawyers who maybe in the mold that I was in to go and like change, change stuff from within find the transaction, which is going to take four weeks and the client is getting irate. And So, actually we could probably do this in a week if we do it using Avvoka or a similar piece of software.

[00:31:44] And So, that's one way that we convince people, and we have our more junior evangelists and actually a lot of our client contacts at corporates are actually the paralegal teams because they're at coalface and they really understand the value of this stuff. So, I would say we have, we [00:32:00] definitely have less whether it's at a well-funded in-house legal team, we have less of an issue convincing them of the value, I think the elephant in the room a little bit is the hourly model of charging. So, it decreasingly that’s an issue actually. A lot of firms are finding new ways of invoicing, their clients and packaging deals and that's increasingly fixed fee. So, particularly in areas like finance that's, to be honest, very often been the case anyway, essentially, it's making the argument say around, I think efficiency is a bit of a tired argument now. And it hasn't really caused mass adoption of automation yet. I think there's other ones that we're making now around internal collaboration and approval processes.

[00:32:39] So, we're able to build in sort of people being added to documents. To approve them where certain sort of risk thresholds have been exceeded. So, for example, if a liability caps over a certain level, you get a particular approval on that document in private practice, say you're doing a real estate finance deal, then you've got a real estate asset, but also an IP asset that's being secured automatically adding your colleagues [00:33:00] from those divisions into the document. Data, as well is a huge one, the argument that we make, we say at the moment you're losing all of the data on all of your deals by negotiating them over e-mail and over Word. If you actually start drafting them via our platform and even negotiate them in some cases. And a lot of our corporate clients do that. What you'll be can tell you is every single key legal and commercial term within your documents. And they'll just pause there for a second. We can tell them absolutely every key legal and commercial detail, because they're all driven by our questionnaire.

[00:33:29] So, we don't need machine learning. We don't need anything. We at any one moment in time, we can run an out of the box due diligence report on every single draft that they've done. If they're being acquired, they can run a DD report in four seconds. And send that off to a buyer. Equally, if that some subject to some sort of audit or they just want to find out when their contracts are coming up for renewal or, where the skeletons are buried and maybe where they need to have a little look ahead of maybe an acquisition, you can do that as well.

[00:33:55] The other thing that you can track as well as negotiation data, So, you can see [00:34:00] exactly which of your clauses are getting push back on. One of the things, Lara, that's really interesting is we've actually seen that with some of our more well-established clients who really making use of all this stuff in the system, most of the push back isn't even on things like liability clauses, or the really material stuff in documents, it's actually where there is a lack of clarity or mistakes in precedents.

[00:34:24] And So, what we're able to do is we're able to say to the law firms or to clients here's where you're getting pushback. Here's where you should make your contracts more clear. And here's where, actually you're getting pushed back on material commercial terms. So, maybe you should have sort of three options for this clause and you should have kind of automatic fallback and this kind of thing, and really think about it strategically.

[00:34:43] So, we're talking about helping clients achieve materially, better commercial terms and outcomes. And quicker negotiations and all this kind of thing over and above just pure efficiency. So, those other arguments are working really well. And then another sort of  [00:35:00] element and it's semi-related is on the private practice side. We're also able to make some arguments around marginal cost to providing a service. So, what am I talking about? Tech companies, as you'll know can make a load of money because well, the marginal cost of them providing a sort of software-based service is very small.

[00:35:17] It’s basically your server running costs. And at the moment law firms, their profitability is linked fairly inherently to the number of people and the number of hours people put in. And look, that's pretty profitable scheme, but actually if you can add on top of that a few sort of products, which, allow you to leverage those sort of tech margins profit margins.

[00:35:36] That’s going to boost your income even more. So, what we've seen as law firms actually starting to offer documents and document drafting portals, and, using a tool like ours, document negotiation, and collaboration portals, which allow them to advise people on business as usual contracting, but also to provide documents, fully drafted documents to an even wider range of people as well.

[00:35:56] I think basically taking that focus away from efficiency because frankly it's not [00:36:00] sexy or compelling and moving to here's how we're going to help you make more money and also draft better contracts and get better deals. So, yeah hopefully that answers your question. 

[00:36:09] Lara Quie: [00:36:09] Yeah, that's great. And I think it's very interesting that as you say, law firms move away from the billable hour model to a more fixed price version. It means that there are opportunities for them by using technology to get a higher profit margin. And certainly, by white labeling products like yours. And as you say, putting those in portals and membership sort of subscription services, where.

[00:36:35] We talked about Herbert Smith. So, for example, if they've got their own platform where startups can log in and get templates and things and use these kinds of technological solutions, they can do a lot of DIY and then they ask the lawyers to help with the finer bits that they can't quite get to grips with.

[00:36:55] So, there's definitely an opportunity for law firms to use the [00:37:00] technology just as an end product like that. So, they don't even need to necessarily get too involve themselves. And I'm sure that's quite an attractive proposition for them. So, are you seeing that then lots of them doing that sort of white labeling?

[00:37:13] Giles Thompson: [00:37:13] Yeah, absolutely. It's become a huge thing. The people running these law firms are, amazing strategists they really are and what they are. I think what people are seeing is the alternative legal service providers coming in and providing these kinds of services. So, you look at something like Rocket Lawyer,  they just raised a huge amount of money recently, and seed legals these firms are providing quite excellent legal advice, but quite lean legal advice to people.

[00:37:39] like Avvoka. And what they're doing is they're getting a foot in the door when it comes to those bigger pieces of corporate work as well. So, I think, yeah, law firms become aware that actually they need to start serving those smaller clients, particularly those scale-up clients in a way that is more familiar to the way those, they scale up clients work and in a lean way So, that when they [00:38:00] come in to do a massive IPO or to get acquired or whatever, they've got that foot in the door.

[00:38:04] So, it's being viewed is definitely a sort of a business development thing to combat the fact that those ALSPs  are capturing some of those really attractive growth clients. 

[00:38:15] Lara Quie: [00:38:15] Yeah. I can see why they would want to try and capture some of that back. There is certainly a lot of disruption going on in every single space and definitely legal is one of them as well. But let's talk about your actual role as head of growth. What does a typical day look like for you? 

[00:38:33] Giles Thompson: [00:38:33] There isn't a typical day. But gosh, it can range from anything. I'm obviously on the phone a lot showing people the software and talking them through how it works. I do a lot of pilot projects. So, proof of concept projects in a concentrated time period, where I consult with people and a few of my brilliant colleagues, we figure out what documents people should start with. We structure a little a success story that we need to achieve. And then we achieve automate those documents with clients and achieve that in the 60 days and then do a bit of an [00:39:00] assessment and roll it out.

[00:39:01] But I do a lot of the PR side of things and a lot of marketing. So, I oversee the. Social media and a of our initiatives for that kind of thing. But yeah, some of the stuff I enjoy most is actually enacting client feedback as well. So, I'm at the, I guess I'm at the coalface now, listening to people who say why isn't the product able to do this?

[00:39:19] This is how we work. And So, I have to use, again, I'm still using my empathy and thinking about, Hey, So, actually the way that this problem that the lawyer has identified with software or the way that it can be improved is pretty valid. But actually, lawyers have a tendency to also suggest the solution.

[00:39:36] And sometimes their solutions are absolutely brilliant, and we end up implementing them into the software and we we're small and agile enough that we can do that. And that's, I think one of our real strengths but some of the time it's also me taking a step back and thinking. Actually, that's not a great way for us to achieve this because maybe that's applicable to private practice teams, but it's not really that applicable to in-house teams.

[00:39:56] So, I have to think about what the sorely met want is. [00:40:00] And I have to figure out how we deliver that in a positive agnostic universalized way as well. And So, I really enjoy that as well. Just the other day, we run these reports called clause heatmaps which tell our clients how and where their documents are typically getting marked up as I alluded to earlier, and one of our clients said to us, actually, you know what, it's not, it's useful to have that because the professional support lawyers can look at that report and mark up the precedents.

[00:40:27] But I tell you what, it'd be really useful to have that information on a clause-by-clause basis when I'm actually negotiating and drafting my contract. If I get pushed back on, again, liability clause to keep using that example, but I get pushed back on that. I want to actually see the five most popular ways that my colleagues mark that up in response. And I don't care about machine learning. I actually just want to see what my colleagues have done, and I want that at my fingertips, So, I don't have to search through my emails. So, search through the file. And actually, I thought actually we could put in our clause heatmap.

[00:40:54] Into the actual negotiation editor. And So, it's that kind of thing. I think yeah, actually I spent a lot of [00:41:00] time looking for that kind of thing. That would be a really useful thing to do. We already have the technology, let's just make it available in a really user friendly way. So, it's like anything, it's my kind of experience with consumer software when you're in your Amazon shopping basket, whatever saying, this additional purchase has been most popular with this stapler and then it staples. So, adding in some of those things I'm used to, as a consumer in, into our product, that’s the bit, which makes me really happy.

[00:41:22] Lara Quie: [00:41:22] Yeah. That sounds a good a sort of drop-down menu of possible amendments to clauses that you could offer when you get pushed back on. And you could see it almost as a sliding scale, depending on how good the other side is at negotiating their position. So, that's quite fun.

[00:41:39] And I'm just thinking that actually. That's a fantastic learning tool for younger lawyers to, to see all of the different options that there would be So, that you can, when you look at a document and you see the variables, you see the areas for negotiation, et cetera. And you could almost use it as a quiz format.

[00:41:57] I'm thinking that you could train it [00:42:00] could be quite a good thing to have at law school where you have how would you negotiate this document? And you could have some clever automation for that. So, maybe something to think about? 

[00:42:12] Giles Thompson: [00:42:12] Okay. Yeah.  That's So, funny Lara, cause actually, I don’t know you did, this is a lawyer, but So, often I would trawl through all the documents that whoever my supervisor was or whoever was marking it up, and I'd find the language that they'd used, because I knew that even if I put in perfectly good language that someone else had drafted, they'd probably try and edit it in their own style.

[00:42:31] So, I can totally imagine what you're saying, but junior lawyers going in and finding whatever the supervisor they working with used the last time. In order to serve that particular audience, but yeah, it's a brilliant point, we get asked that all the time and say by automating all of our documents, will our juniors not learn? My usual argument as well, actually try getting them to actually create the automation on the document in the first place.

[00:42:51] And then they'll learn pretty damn quickly all the different elements of the document and how they interrelate. And actually, that's another great point when that feature is implemented, which is happening this [00:43:00] week. That'll be another one I point to. 

[00:43:01] Lara Quie: [00:43:01] Okay. In terms of what plans you have for the technology going forward, what are the things that you dream of being able to do with the software?

[00:43:11] Giles Thompson: [00:43:11] I think it's not So, much a dream, maybe it's a world where, document automation is pervasive throughout legal services and adjacent industries.  Maybe that's a dream, but I feel like that's going to happen. It's just when my, my dream for this year is that the LMA automate So, this piece of work that we're doing with the Loan Market Association and Allen & Overy deliver, licensed versions of the LMA recommended form documents to their members both law firms and corporates.

[00:43:37] My dream is that really gets off the ground this year. I know it will. But what I'm hoping for is that there's mass adoption, not only of the drafting functionality, but also banks and their representatives actually start negotiating and collaborating on the Avvoka platform and move away a little bit from that sort of email negotiation process So, that everybody has access to better data [00:44:00] and all these deals get done faster and ultimately people get access to finance more. So, that's the piece of magic that I want to see this year. And I know it will make life easier for finance lawyers across the world. But yeah, that's the dream.

[00:44:13] Lara Quie: [00:44:13] Wonderful. I'm glad you've got lots of dreams and it sounds like this technology is going to be just fantastic going forward in terms of making the legal industry keep up with the times and certainly one of the more traditional professional service industries, but it can harness technology. And certainly, Avvoka and other technology platforms are certainly paving the way. And it's great to hear your enthusiasm for your role and how you're making a difference. Thank you So, much, Giles, for sharing your insights today. I'm sure that lots of people have learned some great things today and hopefully some law firms that haven't heard of you before, may be reaching out and finding out more and certainly joining the Academy, sending their young people to experience the [00:45:00] Academy. And also, some of the older partners as well. Everybody can have a go and try it out. So, that sounds fantastic. 

[00:45:08] Giles Thompson: [00:45:08] Yeah. And thank you very much, Lara, for having me, it's been lovely chatting to you and hearing your perspective and it's, it seems like you're someone who's really genuinely interested in this sort of innovation that we're seeing in legal services. So, yeah, I'd love to stay in touch and keep chatting to you about all of this stuff. And I will continue listening to the pod as well. 

[00:45:29] Lara Quie: [00:45:29] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode of the legal genie podcast, please go to Apple podcasts, and give it a rating and review to help others find it. Please do subscribe So, that you don't miss the next exciting episode of the legal genie podcast. Thanks for listening. Have a magical week ahead.