All Things Legally Speaking with Robert Hanna - Episode 29

In Episode 29 of the Legal Genie podcast, your host, Lara Quie, is in conversation with the Robert Hanna, Founder & Managing Partner of KC Partners, a legal talent solutions and content creation firm focused on community. 

Robert and his team work with all the most prestigious law firms in the UK and internationally helping to place lawyers at all levels in private practice and in-house. 

He is incredibly dedicated to content creation and has leveraged technology to the max by consistently producing high quality content.

He is one of the most followed Legal Recruiters across social media globally and is a LinkedIn Audio Influencer.

Robert has built and scaled multi-million-pound revenue generating teams and sits as a strategic advisor & investor to Recruitment & Legal Tech startups.

He is the host of the enormously successful “Legally Speaking Podcast”, a top 1.5% podcast globally. 

It has been no. 1 in the Top 100 Careers Chart and has a 5 - star rating on Apple Careers & Business Podcasts.

In this episode, Rob shares so many nuggets of wisdom about how he leverages social media to build a community and offer value that will leave a legacy. 

He talks about LinkedIn, Clubhouse, his Legally Speaking Podcast and LinkedIn Audio. 

He also talks about taking risks, building your personal board of directors and playing the long game.

I hope that you enjoy this episode.

You can connect with Robert Hanna on LinkedIn here.

And on his website www.kcpartners.com

Also:

·         If you liked this episode, please rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

·         Look out for the next episode coming soon.

You please follow Lara Quie:

·         On LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie

·         Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

·          Or drop Lara a line at Lara@LaraQAssociates.com

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Legal Genie Episode 29 with Robert Hanna

[00:00:00] Hello. I'm Lara Quie and thank you for joining me for the Legal Genie Podcast. Following my career as a corporate lawyer, I reinvented myself as an entrepreneur and business development and marketing professional in the legal industry. I'm currently the head of business development for Asia Pacific for a leading international barristers' chambers called Twenty Essex. 

After a life event introduced me to the world of executive coaching, I set up my own consultancy called Lara Q Associates through which I coach in-house and private practice lawyers on how to design their best life now. I help them to get unstuck and build their book of business. I also help them with personal branding, LinkedIn skills, growing self-confidence and how to get to the next level. 

[00:01:18] This podcast is intended to give you an insight into the lives and careers of movers and shakers in the legal industry. People who have done interesting things and have good advice to share with you. I hope that you'll find their career stories helpful in your own legal journey. 

[00:01:33] Please rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts to help us reach a wider audience who may also find the content of value. 

[00:01:41] I'm on LinkedIn most days so reach out to me with your feedback on the show. I hope that you'll enjoy this episode. 

[00:01:48] Lara Quie: Hello, and welcome to Episode 29 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. Today. I'm really excited to have with me Robert Hanna, Founder and Managing Partner of KC Partners, a legal talent solutions and content creation firm focused on community Robert and his teamwork with all the most prestigious law firms in the UK and internationally helping to place lawyers at all levels in private practice and in-house and what makes KC partners stand out in particular is their focus on building a strong, engaged community within the legal industry. 

[00:02:28] Robert is incredibly dedicated to content creation, and he's leveraged technology to the max by consistently producing high quality content. And you can find him on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Clubhouse, YouTube, Spotify, Apple, and Google podcasts, and all other podcast platforms. He is the host of the enormously successful Legally Speaking Podcast, a top 1.5% podcast globally, and it has been [00:03:00] also ranked number one in the top 100 careers chart and has a five-star rating on Apple careers and business podcasts.

[00:03:07] In fact, it was one of the inspirations behind me starting my own Legal Genie podcast when I heard his podcast. So, we have lots in common. Not only are we in the legal industry, but also parents of daughters and lovers of Dachshund sausage dogs. So welcome to the show, Robert. 

[00:03:26] Robert Hanna: Aw, well, what a lovely kind introduction, Lara, and it's been a, it's been a real pleasure to have you in the community and be part of the community.

[00:03:33] And your podcast is amazing what you do to help people. And it's so true. We share so many passions and loves, and it's a real honour as a same pleasure to be on your show. So, thank you so much for having me and thank you for kind introduction. 

[00:03:46] Lara Quie: Oh, thank you so much. I think there's a lot of mutual admiration.

[00:03:51] Anyway, let's start at the beginning. Tell me a little bit about your childhood, where you grew up and what you wanted to be. 

[00:03:59] Robert Hanna: Yeah. So I, grew up in Leicestershire. I was actually born in Winchester, but it was a very brief visit. So I was there and then moved to, Leicestershire. So that's where I grew up in my earlier days.

[00:04:08] And so I went to school around there and then university took me to the University of Leeds, which I absolutely loved my time up there. It was my first time "up north". So, I definitely experienced the variation of the northerly winds and so forth but had a wonderful time up there. But childhood for me, my fondest memories, perhaps that will lead on to why I'm in the legal space.

[00:04:30] So I talk quite openly about my grandfather being my greatest mentor in terms of he ran a very successful law firm in the United Kingdom, because Leicester at the time was the second richest city outside of London, because there's a lot of commercial. There's a lot of hosiery trade there. So when I was young during my sort of teenage years, I would either do pot washing bar jobs, or I'd be in the law firm.

[00:04:54] So I'd be in the law firm doing the really high-tech roles of photocopying stapling, collecting the coffee, going to the strong room, getting the deeds, archived, whatever it might be. And so that's always stuck with me because he, grew his business to be highly successful really from the ground root up with not much support. 

[00:05:14] He came from a very working-class family and always strived to do the best he could do. And I think that definitely rubbed off on me in terms of where I'm trying to go on my own journey. So that's where it really fueled my passion for business. And so in terms of what I wanted to be having been in that sort of commercial environment quite early on, as I always knew at some stage in my career, wants to set up a business.

[00:05:34] I always had that sort of itch to think, okay, maybe I could do this. And to be honest with you, my biggest regret, and this is for people listening. If you have that inkling. It's just do it because of my biggest regret is I should have done it sooner. I think I fell into the trap, and we use the expressions.

[00:05:50] "Don't let your wage be your cage". Don't suddenly feel like you can't go out on it just because you may have internal voices, but in an environment you're currently in maybe sapping [00:06:00] that entrepreneurial flair or knowledge. So I think it's one of my greatest regrets, but I've moved on from that as I probably should have set up my businesses five or six years earlier.

[00:06:08] But that kind of tells you a bit about my story. And then from Leeds, I moved to the city of London to get my first job. I was the first person within my family to go to the city of London and be in the Square Mile. So it was quite a nice thing to have achieved. And I started as a junior recruiter at a FTSE 250 organization there.

[00:06:24] I joined at one of the hardest times. So I joined during the Lehman's Brothers crash, which joining a recruitment desk for banking and finance during the Lehman's crash, where everyone was losing their jobs. And it was a mass recession, it's fight or flight. And that's really good experience for me because I learned the art of having to build relationships, having to do commercial negotiations, having to do deals, to keep my job.

[00:06:47] Ultimately businesses were cutting. There was a lot of cuts during that time, but I'm exceptionally grateful for that experience because it was a harsh environment. It was in at the deep end. You have to make something happen, even though the market conditions are against you. And I think to this day, without that grounding, that experience, it probably wouldn't have made me the sort of resilient recruiter, consulting type individual that I am today because some people can get into the industry and it's very easy. For me it did not come naturally at all. I was what I described as a first year flop, but what kept me in the role was my work ethic, my real attitude to wanting to do the best and make things happen. 

[00:07:26] And then from there really I joined a boutique firm. So my boss left, tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Hey, do you want to come?" And I was like, "sure, let's try a boutique". I've been in this big global environment. And we started there and there was three or four of us we were in a basement. No natural daylight.

[00:07:42] And I helped him as part of that. And I was the first organically grown director within that business. We scaled that to 20, 30 people. And then as I said, I probably got comfortable in that role for one or two years as a sort of director in my sort of early twenties, I felt like, okay, I was on top of the world.

[00:07:57] That may be. I was in that zone of not really thinking about what's the next step. And as I said to you originally, I always wanted to set up my business. So eventually I felt like I'd just hit. And I thought now's the time I've done it to somebody else. I've learned from a big environment. Let's take the plunge.

[00:08:12] And let's set up where I am today, which is KC Partners. So a bit of a long-winded answer, but a boy from Leicester that went to Leeds, went to London. Who's now trying to make some real impact on the global legal community. 

[00:08:22] Lara Quie: Lots of Ls in your life, Leicester, Leeds, London, Legally Speaking Podcast. But I'm just wondering as I'm sure some listeners will be too, why you didn't become a lawyer like your grandfather? 

[00:08:37] Robert Hanna: Do you know what? Everybody asks me that and the honest answer is my grandfather put me off. He said, "Don't be a lawyer." My grandfather actually wanted me to be an accountant. He was very hardworking, very studious. A big believer in academia and education. I'm the only person in the family who doesn't have extra letters after their names. So my brothers are [00:09:00] both chartered surveyors. They are both RICS.

[00:09:03] I always jest though, because I got a BA Hons. I don't know what it is nowadays, but yeah he, wanted me to be an accountant, but I know for sure I would have been a horrible accountant because the way I am with numbers is not so good, but he was always a big believer in terms of do something, which you can really chuck yourself into work hard. Very much of that generation.

[00:09:26] And I think that rubbed off on me in terms of particularly at university I always tried to be my best. I always tried to get the best results. I'm competitive, but not in a sort of arrogant way, but I'm very competitive within myself that anything I chuck myself into, I want to make sure I give 110%. But yes, so my grandfather said don't be a lawyer. And I I think it was a throwaway comment, but that kind of, I wasn't a lawyer. And that was that... 

[00:09:47] Lara Quie: It was all about photocopying and stapling that put you off. But anyway, it sounds like a lucky escape. Really. When you think about all the people that you hear about in the legal industry. But you did end up in the legal industry. So the, first job that you mentioned was actually more in the banking and finance space. So how did you actually come to focus on the legal industry in the end? 

[00:10:14] Robert Hanna: That's a great question, because again, one thing that I think is important in careers is just taking risks. So I'm the only recruiter I believe to have transitioned across three different markets. So I started in banking and finance with some energy. I then moved to the boutique that was procurement and supply chain. And then I set up a legal recruitment firm, talent solutions firm with no legal experience or contacts or knowledge.

[00:10:38] That's risk because you can imagine a partner, maybe in a law firm who has a corporate practice who's been used to that for years and years suddenly saying, "I'm going to go and be a litigation lawyer." And just drop the practice and goes to make an extreme risk. So, the rationale for the first move from the FTSE 250 was I had the relationship with my boss.

[00:10:53] I wanted to see what it was like in a boutique environment and see whether or not I was equipped enough to take on more responsibility to develop and grow. And because I was quite junior, I'd only had one and a half, two years’ experience. I could transition and pick up a new market place. Where it became slightly trickier and this is where I think I got trapped, as I mentioned. Not trapped because we all make our own choices. That's the wrong word to use, but within procurement supply chain, I was there six years and I rose quite quickly. So I was able to build off the experience I had garnered and I thought, "Wow this is great. But, I thought okay, I've got the skills, I've got the experience. Now I've got the belief. I want to do something connected to the law. I want to keep that family legacy going. I want to do it. And of course, there's commercial reasons for that as well.

[00:11:33] I was looking at the commercial value, the ROI in the sector that I was involved in. And I was looking at the sort of rates and the salaries that we were seeing in London and the potential advantage of moving to a perhaps more lucrative, dynamic space also where I'd be engaged more.

[00:11:48] I'd like to converse with lawyers. Understand how they think. You know what they're looking to try and do. Their career aspirations. So, that really took me to the world of legal. And that also keeps me accountable because I'm very keen to leave a legacy of Impact. Not just in terms of another legal talent solutions firm, but what more could we do to give value to the community?

[00:12:09] Because we have all these digital resources and technologies at our fingertips now. And I think we have a responsibility to all do as much as we can to not only help this generation, but also the next generation of legal talent, which is something I'm very passionate about trying to support and change, because I think there is a lot of change that's needed in terms of, from a mental health perspective, a work life balance perspective, a diversity equity inclusion perspective.

[00:12:30] So I think we should use our voices where we can on these vehicles to do good for the industry. And that's something I am very passionate about. 

[00:12:36] Lara Quie: Yes, you certainly are. And you've done some amazing things in that space and definitely helping to give people a voice when it comes to all of those topics.

[00:12:45] And certainly, I think your timing when you started KC Partners back in 2016, we were becoming much more conscious of social media and the technology, but it was still relatively new. And I think that your firm is just so unique in the way that you've gone full pelt into it, and really dedicated yourself in a big way to your online engagement.

[00:13:09] So tell me a little bit more about why you wanted to build a community and what the strategy was behind that initially.

[00:13:16] Robert Hanna: Yeah. And that's, another great question. And I think the first thing to say is whilst you're being exceptionally kind and I'm so grateful for your, words and for what you perceive we have achieved. It doesn't come without sacrifice.

[00:13:28] And what I mean by that, the legal industry is not fully adapted or adopted to the social media and that sort of, there's some good, valid reasons for that. Obviously, it's a regulated profession in a client perception. And so it's been a lot of I've had to believe in what I think the bigger purpose is, about creating that community.

[00:13:48] And I'm really giving back, but not everyone always be on the bus with that at this point in time, because it takes a period of adoption. So in terms of the sort of strategy, when I first started, it was pretty much little old me. And I thought, what is the ways that somebody who has no previous legal recruitment experience who's not known in the marketplace can stand up against some of the more established competitors that have databases and contacts and very well known within the legal community.

[00:14:19] What I quickly noticed was that's great, but they're very much working towards an old model in terms of Okay, we've got the relationships we'll just carry on as we are. And I thought what a way for us to amplify and sort of 10 X our level of visibility and our engagement and our voice to market to use all these resources, these social media platforms that you mentioned. I'm omni present. As m y good friend, Mitch Jackson, who's a top 2013 California litigation lawyer of the year.

[00:14:47] And he's a top social media expert. And he's been on stages, such as Tony Robbins. He's been a mentor of mine. He's been a friend on the show, and he said, "Rob, these are all free welcome mats to your community. Why don't you use them? Why don't you put yourself out there and start providing something, give something to a community?

[00:15:04] And then you can be having conversations, you can engage in." And then it comes to the second piece of you need to have vehicles to enable you to do that. And so one of my vehicles that you very kindly mentioned that were exceptionally passionate about is "The Legally Speaking Podcast".

[00:15:17] So I'm a big believer in risk. As you've known, I've taken director roles down at a startup with no experience. I've taken so many risks throughout my career. That was another risk because it's a lot of time, energy and effort to get something off the ground to get established.

[00:15:30] So why on earth are people going to care about this legal talent solutions firm? That's how we started as a legal recruitment now we're talent solutions content. Why would anyone care to listen about this. So we were the first ever legal recruiting firm to set up a legal podcast.

[00:15:44] We were one of the first in the UK to have a legal podcast. So we had no idea whether it was going to work, but again, I think we got in early on podcasting, which I still think is super early for people listening in, where you can really build community and you can connect. And it's a great way to invite people onto your show to mastermind, to learn, and then to open doors.

[00:16:03] And so it's a really smart business development strategy as well, because we could reach out to partners and don't just talk, Hey you're Rob, I've never heard or seen of you. What can you do for me?" 

[00:16:14] "Hello, Mr. and Mrs. Client, this is what I can do for you. We can give you a voice to 3000 cities around the world. We can give you a chance to shine your story to a community that will likely help you with attracting clients, likely help you with your own recruitment and give you a point of difference to every other partner that's maybe just writing articles that are a little bit bland and vanilla nowadays, because we're in a sort of digital world where we want more, eye-catching engaging content or things for people to be listening to on the move.

[00:16:41] And so, we went with it and it spiralled, and as you very kindly mentioned, we're now 1.5 percent of, legal shows in the world. We've had anyone from Stephanie Boyce, the current President of the Law Society through to Carol Baskin from Tiger King.

[00:16:55] We're sponsored by Clio, which is one of the major legal tech providers in the world right now [00:17:00] on a colossal journey to implement change. And we've had so many incredible voices and it's all linked to legal careers. So we're trying to offer and extract that wisdom from the guests that we have, the people who are doing good for the industry, but what are some of that learns?

[00:17:14] What are some of the lessons? How would they pay it forward, backwards? And what are some of the real things that people need to know that maybe they can't get access to or quickly Google search online. And that's really the sort of preface of the show and it's been an absolute pleasure and a journey.

[00:17:28] And now it gets to the stage where we love it. But there's the added pressure because new level, new devil, as they say, so now it's the case of, okay, you've got this, but what next, we're in our fifth season. So we're already planning season six, which we'll probably like to go live in September/ November time.

[00:17:44] We're depending on dates and how do you keep the content? Because as you said, and I appreciate you saying your kind words, it's high-quality content we produce. You can't suddenly go backwards. You have to go forwards because the audience, the community expects that. And so you have to think about right what next?

[00:17:58] So of course we're keeping on [00:18:00] top of the latest legal tech movements. Of course, we're looking at what firms and what we need to be doing from a D, E and I perspective. Of course, we're looking at wellbeing. Of course, we're looking at the changing of the role within the lawyer, all of these things.

[00:18:12] And then we're thinking how can we actually provide this into valuable content related to the community? So, it's a joy, but it's also opportunity cost because now it's great that we have sponsors, we have endorsements, we have community, and it's a revenue generating vehicle. It's serious.

[00:18:25] It's not a hobby, but that's at the detriment that time, energy, effort to build something which could have been loss of revenue through our other main vehicle, which is the recruiting, the talent solution side. And sometimes if you're on a vision that's so big, it's bigger than a community. Some people might not be on board the bus with that.

[00:18:42] And so you have to believe in what is your mission? What is it you want to try and do? And if you believe it's right, then you'll do whatever it takes. And you'll take some people on the journey with you. And some people won't be part of that journey because they won't believe in it. And so you just have to be strong-willed enough to do that.

[00:18:57] And that was probably my greatest challenge, but also my greatest success in the same way. If I can put it that way. 

[00:19:03] Lara Quie: Yeah, definitely. I think, as you say, you're a risk taker, you took that risk and it's paid off in a great way. When you're a lean and mean team, it is true that you're just the one person spending valuable time on the social media aspects, but that is time away, as you say, from the main business. And I think that is something that entrepreneurs all struggle with. It's the juggling. And it's knowing where to put your priorities. Where to focus first to get the ball rolling.

[00:19:31] Establish yourself enough. And in some ways, it almost feels like The Legally Speaking Podcast ran away. It snowballed and ran off. And it achieved such a momentum that you definitely can't stop it now.

[00:19:44] But that's good. And a s you say, there are a number of people, particularly from the older generation for whom law is a very traditional area, generally and who are not totally on board with social media and really don't see the value in that.

[00:19:58] And don't even understand [00:20:00] LinkedIn for one thing. And so what I think is that you're playing the ultimate long game, because you're very focused on, the younger generation and these are the people who really get and really value what you're offering, because on your podcast, you're speaking, as you say to mentors and people who want to give back who are sharing their fantastic stories, giving advice, telling people about the latest trends, insights, and all sorts of things.

[00:20:27] But I think it's really inspirational. And I think that a lot of young people will be listening to that and it will help shape their careers. And they'll be forever grateful to you for providing that platform. And so that profile is what's going to make them come to you over and over. And that brand awareness that you get with that generation is something else, isn't it?

[00:20:48] Robert Hanna: And you've also hit on a point, which is another part of my strategy, which you picked out there, which I'm going to share, but you're right. You asked me if was just the chap who'd set up the business, the one man band the competitors of mine have got the relationships.

[00:21:03] They know the now partners, they know the senior associates that are going to be the partners, but they're probably taking their eye off the ball on the next generation. I thought the next generation definitely wants to be like Instagram, Tik Tok, LinkedIn. Eventually they'll move to that platform. I can start building that community, warming it up nice and early because I use the analogy.

[00:21:22] We don't want to play somebody once we want to play somebody for life. But guess what? When people are actually, and that's, the contacts are good, but relationships paying is really having a good customer lifetime value. So we can have customer life value from a first year law student to a partner.

[00:21:36] That's a really good relationship to foster and maintain. But you can't continuously start and continue that relationship by just talking about jobs. It's too transactional. They're not always going to be looking for the jobs. They're going to be happy in their role. So what do you need to do? You need to give them some content.

[00:21:50] You need to give them some welcome mats. You need to give them something to stay engaged, to be like, oh, top of mind. And then they may not be looking they'll be thinking, oh, go and speak to Rob at KC Partners. Yeah, go and speak to him. And then you pick off organic referrals, you pick up organic relationships because you're putting something in.

[00:22:06] So this is what I say to people who are anti social media. I'm not giving a blanket canvas because everyone is allowed to have their experiences on social media and a lot of things on social media. I can understand where there's lots of criticism.

[00:22:18] It's not for me. But you look at people in the legal industry that have really taken this by storm and the benefit for their business. Let's look at Alice Stevenson, for example, I'm sure we're all familiar with, Stephenson Law. What an example of just coming out and being yourself as an authentic leader and what she's been able to build with her law firm.

[00:22:35] And she's been a guest on our show. Let's give more of a diverse range. Look at Jody Hill at Thrive law, then let's go to America. Let's look at people like Frank Ramos who runs his own law firm.

[00:22:45] Who's actively engaging on LinkedIn. They have huge communities and that's good for business. They're going to get referrals. They're going to get speaking opportunities. They're going to have an opportunity to attract more people they're going to reduce. I don't want to say this too loudly, their [00:23:00] recruitment costs because more people are going to come to them naturally.

[00:23:03] And so I think it's so, so important, but yes, that was another key part of the strategy is go to the next generation. Cause I haven't lost the current one. But my time will come when I'm old and grey, when these folks are in that sort of prime and I'll be I'll be hopefully there and supporting them and seeing them go through their journey and be the sort of top-of-mind voice for their careers.

[00:23:25] Lara Quie: Exactly. And it is all about staying front of mind. And this is exactly what I tell the lawyers. Those who are hesitant to be on LinkedIn. What is it about LinkedIn? It's the opportunity to be yourself and in front of eyeballs, literally on a daily basis and you controlling that narrative.

[00:23:44] It's all very well to write an article, et cetera, but you need to be multitasking. You have to be doing all of those things. And when it comes to potential clients or existing clients, people are very basic. When they have something that they need [00:24:00] done, they'll literally look at the last email they received from someone and go, yeah this firm will do, and that you're front of mine because either you posted something amazing Or you've invited them to a great event.

[00:24:14] Maybe you're putting on a webinar that's interesting for them, or you've just sent them an email, attaching an interesting article saying, Hey, I saw this and thought of you, but finding many different ways, not in a salesy, kind of manner, but authentic ways to just be present. And I think that social media gives you that opportunity and certainly, LinkedIn in particular, it gives you that professional feel. 

[00:24:40] But I do think that podcasts are another great way. So lawyers should be either starting their own podcast or trying to appear as a guest. It's such a great way to tell your story. But you were a very early adopter of Clubhouse and I know that LinkedIn audio has just launched. Tell me a little bit about that and what you're doing in that space. 

[00:25:04] Robert Hanna: You make so many important points. I hope people take heed of what you just shared there because LinkedIn, if we talk about LinkedIn, which you know it's something that I'm passionate about. You have an opportunity every day to talk to the world's largest professional network.

[00:25:20] You can go to a virtual conference in front of 800 million people for free. And have an opportunity to put something into the ecosystem that could be good for your personal brand and your business. That's the enormity of the opportunity right now. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. You may be thinking that's all good for you, Rob.

[00:25:37] You've got a business. You've got a podcast. You spend all this time. I don't have the time. You can just start commenting on some of the key voices and sharing your opinion. And there's been some amazing people that have been able to be highly successful off the back of that. You look at people like Lisa Lang and all these people.

[00:25:51] Once you get to know the legal community that have really supercharged their careers and personal brands. So you can always start small, but there's a ginormous opportunity with that. And so you're absolutely right. And so fast forward today through being consistent. And that's the number one thing in anything in life, you have to be consistent because nowadays I say to people and people may disagree with this, it's a little bit of a contentious point. I don't think anyone cares about word of mouth as much anymore. 

[00:26:19] If you're not visible, you're invisible because we're in this online world. Because again, people will find this a contentious, the best-known beats the best. We're in a world now of if you can put yourself out there, you can be consistent.

[00:26:32] You can provide high quality content. You can be seen as a thought leader. You will have a far better lead conversion and attraction to your business than someone who is staying in the dark ages and not putting themselves out there because ultimately things change. Yeah, we're not using the same types of currency.

[00:26:48] The ways we spend from that generation, the world changes and you, sometimes you have to evolve and change and adapt with it. Admittedly, maybe some people do it at different paces, but come what may we're in this world. And it's [00:27:00] not slowing down. And, that's very kind that you mentioned clubhouse and LinkedIn audio. 

[00:27:04] So for those folks not familiar, I'm actually working directly with LinkedIn currently. And that's because I've been putting a lot into the system over the last two, three years. And I'm actually in Dublin at their headquarters next week, which is quite exciting, but they have just released, it's only in beta form, LinkedIn Audio.

[00:27:21] But I always knew that were going to do this. So you mentioned Clubhouse previously, and a lot of people used to say to me, Rob, why are you spending so much time on Clubhouse? Why are you on Clubhouse so much? The honest answer is I was curious. I wanted to learn more. I've built new connections. It's another welcome mat.

[00:27:36] The power of voice. I thought I'd been doing podcasting. I can converse. I can speak to people I can build relationships And I always knew LinkedIn was coming with LinkedIn audio. So what's the best way to have an MBA of understanding a new form of social media or social interaction than going onto a platform where no one knows me.

[00:27:53] I've got nothing to lose. It's brand new, my audience isn't there. So now I'm bringing my last one and a half years social audio [00:28:00] experience hosting, moderating, preparing, engaging. Follow up content conversations, and I'm bringing that to LinkedIn audio. And I'm one of only 500 beta testers, I think in the world who has access right now.

[00:28:11] So I'm leveraging the opportunity to collaborate with right. And like-minded people. So on Mondays, I'm collaborating with I mentioned before Mitch Jackson, one of my mentors, my good friend, Francesca Pittsburgh, who's a top intellectual property lawyer. And we're talking about web three content. And what the impacts are of that on business owners and we're bringing some legal concepts into that.

[00:28:29] And then I'm also doing some careers focus rooms, where we're talking about all things careers. Skills you need. How to stand out. All of these things, because they're linked to what my kind of zone of genius and what I want to be known for and in a very strategic way. And then I'm like, okay, cool. I have this access now.

[00:28:45] How can I maybe look to flip that into monetization points from a sponsorship, from a welcome gate, from eventing. All of these different things, because I think the one thing that's very hard with social audio is to optimize your time. So, for example, on a social media, you can do a post, you can set it, you can forget it.

[00:28:59] You want to go [00:29:00] back and engage with the comments and be into the community. You have to be there for two or three hours. Whereas now it's a lot of times like doing this podcast, but what's the benefit. We're going to get content. We can repurpose that. We can do that in what I call the WAV strategy, written audio video, you can create some clips, you can create some snippets, you can use that.

[00:29:17] And that could potentially give you three months of content. And then suddenly you've got something to push out. And so there's lots of reasons why I'm a big advocate for social audio it's still super early. It's probably where podcasting was five, six years ago. I think LinkedIn is going to be one of the number one prominent platforms for it.

[00:29:33] And it's where all my ideal clients are, where the future lawyers are. It's where the law firms are. And that's why, again, I'm continuing to sharpen my sword during this beta testing perspective, and then hopefully I'll foster some really good, deep-rooted relationships and yeah, provide more value for the community and obviously do good for the business.

[00:29:50] Lara Quie: I think what you're developing is a total portfolio business with so many aspects. And ultimately that is what modern business looks like. Everybody's just been through COVID where if you've got all your eggs in one basket, it is risky. So having multiple income streams is the way forward, but also that ability to adapt and to really focus on what's new and make it yours.

[00:30:15] And ride that. And I think the fact that you identified that LinkedIn would come up with an audio platform at some stage and used the experience of Clubhouse to get used to that. And then have that opportunity as a beta tester is a testament to how you really focused on that and leverage that even LinkedIn themselves, saw that you are a real mover and shaker in this space.

[00:30:38] And it's quite amazing if you think of only 500 people in the world, especially with their focus on America in particular, but the fact that you're in the legal industry if you were to ask someone, Hey, which industries are you focusing on with your 500? I don't think many of them would say, yeah legal.

[00:30:55] It's like no, you would think of technology companies. We just automatically think of that. So I think you've done really, well to get into a high-tech modern space, but dragging legal with you., 

[00:31:09] Robert Hanna: But you make a really good point because a lot of the fellow creators socializer in the other industry and they say, Rob, it's really good what you're doing in legal. You are making it not boring. Making it attractive. And that's why we say with the podcast, it's entertaining, inspirational content because we're trying to you'll know Lara, as well. It's very important that we allow lawyers to be human. And I think some great people like our good friend, Hannah Bekko, who we've collaborated with before, she does brilliant things to really try and push the needle.

[00:31:38] I think she's working on some great stuff because lawyers don't have to be perfect a hundred percent of the time. They don't have to put up this immortal sort of face and be deeply desperately unhappy inside. Open out, share, story tell, find a community. Find yourself more supportive.

[00:31:55] Don't put those stresses and pains on yourself because you'll find the more you put [00:32:00] yourself out there and show your more human self, the more people will be attracted to you. And that does not make me any less of a lawyer. It makes you exactly the same quality lawyer and even more human, which is what people want to do because LinkedIn are trying to create a more human to human connection.

[00:32:15] It's not B to C B2B. My good friend, Josh B Lee, who is a top LinkedIn voice says that doesn't exist B 2B. It's human to human. I'm a human you're a human. We're having a conversation, if we like what we sound, we're going to make a connection and then things off the back of that are going to happen. I think that's why LinkedIn has changed that whole strategy and really embraced the creator economy where I believe there's over 50 million creators now in the world, which I think is fantastic.

[00:32:41] And I think the more we do this for good, I think hopefully we'll have more collaboration. So we'll see less underhand competition and unethical things within not just legal industry, but other industries and we'll have a happier workplace environment. 

[00:32:55] Lara Quie: Definitely. I think the focus on people being their authentic selves is [00:33:00] really helpful. You mentioned the lawyer personality and Dr. Larry Richard has done a lot of research into the lawyer personality, but many lawyers are by their nature, perfectionist very focused on being perfect delivering amazing results and having high personal standards.

[00:33:18] And many also suffer from imposter syndrome quite a lot as well. So it's quite difficult to be on social media if you're struggling with those aspects. And that's why until it becomes much more mainstream for other lawyers, they need to see the evidence of that particular partners in law firms with them getting comfortable with being on podcasts and posting on LinkedIn or appearing on Tik TOK, et cetera.

[00:33:44] Once they are doing that. And it's seen as okay. I feel that younger people will think, oh, this is okay now. But I think that also I can already see the partners of the future amongst all of these young LinkedIn rock [00:34:00] stars. People like Jason Fung and Katie Lipp and Conrad Flakz and all of these people, it's amazing how small the community is at this stage in time.

[00:34:12] Like if you think of the top 50 people in the legal space, we know all of their names and you and I are mentioning all of these people. But I know exactly who you mean, and it's really quite funny because you become part of that small community where you're all helping each other out and you're all trying to lift each other up.

[00:34:30] And I think everybody has a big part to play in that. And it's a very, interesting space, but I need to move on to focus on young lawyers and how you've seen the industry change since you started KC Partners and where you think it's going. 

[00:34:47] Robert Hanna: Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it? In terms of young lawyers. I think it's super important that people realize that they have a voice so early on. I think historically within law firms, the partners they've [00:35:00] earned the right to be partners. What the partner says goes it's always been this way. We're not changing, we're not changing, but as you've mentioned, a few, people there and some other people that I know that are junior, law students who have been become trainee solicitors who have now got their own podcasts who are now engaging.

[00:35:16] That isn't just wishy washy. They're actually building their own personal brand, which by the way, employee advocacy and employee ambassadors is one of the best ways for your business to profiteer. So building your individual's personal brands is more likely that content is going to be 24 times shared more than if you just did a traditional brand post because people relate to the humans. So I would strongly encourage people. And we're seeing this now, even the legal cheek has the social media awards and I think that's brilliant. And I'm, working on something behind the scenes for legal creators, where we want to really disrupt that and just think we have the Legal 500 for the practice area of laws, but what about people that are actually building community?

[00:35:56] What about people that are actually creating? What, can we do to showcase [00:36:00] this needs to be at the table? This is the new form of business development. This is a new form of outreach. This is the new form of building relationships. This is the new form of increasing your retention levels because we're in an era right now.

[00:36:12] We're in a fight for talent. There's a war for talent right now. Most law firms are looking. So what are you doing to keep your people engaged? Part of something, vision, et cetera. So as a junior lawyer, as a junior person coming through, be rest assured you have a voice. And I want people to know that you don't have to be the trainee.

[00:36:29] You just need to look to something like Instagram and you look at some amazing people like Sophie Shure or Megan Hume, all these people again you'll know in our little sphere of our pockets that are creating high profile content and personal brands through saying, Hey, I've got a voice. This is how you get a training contract.

[00:36:45] This is what a day in my life looks like. So everyone has an opportunity to educate and inspire people. And actually you'll probably find that as more senior people or people around you and suddenly you can go to the partner and be like, Hey, I've been working on this for the last two, three years.

[00:36:57] I actually got a meeting. Hey, could you come along? This potentially could lead to a big fish client. This looking at the long game. So I think that's the first thing I would say. Everyone has a voice. Everyone has value. Everybody can utilize what's important. And then just remember. to run your own race at your own pace.

[00:37:12] I think now if you look at the other, maybe more negative side of social media is it's not easy to get a training contract. It's not easy. Kudos to everyone who has, but just because you get one or two rejections, that is not the end of the road. And just because somebody might say to you, I'll probably think about getting something else.

[00:37:30] You've been at this for, a year or so now. Never ever give up and I think it's so, so important. And even people that have been within my community or maybe I've mentored or mentees, and it may have taken them 1, 2, 3, 4 years. But they just didn't give up. So I'd strongly encourage the next generation lawyers do not give up.

[00:37:48] And the other thing I would say is there, isn't just the role of the lawyer. There's so many different roles out there. And you mentioned about we'll certainly always have this element of perfectionism. Why don't we do that technology due to perfectionism? And we can go and put some [00:38:00] efforts into some of the other stuff, because they can automate and churn the documents and make them a hundred percent proof, 24 7, let's use some of the knowledge and skills maybe in some other areas.

[00:38:08] So think about, do you want to be a traditional lawyer? Or do you want to do something as part of the, AI and the legal tech that's emerging? Do you want to be a part of those roles or do you like the business side of the law or what is it that you really like? And I think it's important that you have mentors.

[00:38:22] So you have somebody that can, maybe you can ask those questions to, because it's great when you're studying. And it's great when you're early on. But you don't have all the answers. You only know what's in the textbook of what's around you. So the biggest piece of advice to you is I would think about who's on your board of directors, your own personal board of directors, who are your advisors and sorry to say it, folks, parents are lovely and they will love you.

[00:38:44] They're not always your best careers advice. You need to have people that are in the industry that you're curious to know more and you want to have them and ask them the questions and get their wisdom, their advice, and then form your own opinion on whether it's right for you. But if you're listening to this and you think I don't really have anyone, I've got my tutor, I've got like my one partner in my firm that I'm, that's not enough.

[00:39:04] You need to have a board of directors around you that can give you counsel give you advice. So you can form your own well-rounded opinions and where you want to take your career and what you want to do. 

[00:39:13] Lara Quie: Absolutely, and that's such valuable advice, because I think that younger people are probably quite hesitant to put themselves out there because they're nervous about what people will think.

[00:39:24] Will they get a training contract? Will they be kept on if they've been too busy on social media, if people don't approve? So it is a risk. And you have to handle it carefully. It is very important to manage your personal brand properly because it can go wrong. Let's not say that it's not dangerous.

[00:39:41] It is. But at the same time, it is very powerful. And certainly, from a business development point of view, it is the ultimate way to reach new people. And I think that if you are a young associate to senior associate level. It is really a fantastic [00:40:00] way to start bringing in new contacts and really wowing the partners with your business development skills.

[00:40:07] Just try it out, but not to forget that everybody of your generation will one day be the clients of the future. And so, we are talking about the long game. We mentioned it with your own career, Rob and how you've built KC Partners. But I think that the long game is something that many people don't really focus on.

[00:40:26] We're in such a sort of disposable fast moving on demand society, but ultimately. It is those people who play the long game that actually are the winners. And especially when it comes to things like social media, because we are so lucky to be at a time when all of this is still coming out, it's still new.

[00:40:48] All of these platforms are only just taking off really. And it's a generational thing. So we're here now. And if you start to build something slowly, Right [00:41:00] now you'll just have a head start on people anyway, because just like with Google, Google does reward for consistency and being there.

[00:41:08] So literally if you've had a website and you've constantly updated it, Google knows that you're there, that you're reliable and you've got good quality content and it will promote you. So this idea that you can be a social media superstar overnight is a fallacy. This builds over time and your, podcast, how many episodes are you on right now? 

[00:41:29] Robert Hanna: I think we've got 155 episodes over nearly three years now. We probably only had the, you very kindly mentioned the sort of the attention. I think once we onboard Clio as part of the launch of our season five, I think that's just taking us to another level and all the other things that are with that. But before it's the classic bamboo tree, isn't it? You water it for years and years, nothing happens. And then suddenly it happens. But the issue is, I feel like we're in a world and my friend, Johnny Nash who I do a lot of collaborating within the social audio space.

[00:41:58] He's a top careers expert says we're in an era of instant gratification. And that's the challenge because people will see things online and think I can do that. Why is it not happened for me within three months, a year? It takes time. So having patience, but that's why your mission has got to really mean something to you.

[00:42:16] So when it takes knock backs I'm putting out fires all the time as I'm sure you are Lara, with so many things. So I try to be as open and honest about if it's a good week, a bad week or whatever it is in terms of my messaging and my signalling because we can't be presenting life as all great.

[00:42:32] Cause it's just not it's not, we're always going to have headaches. We're always going to have problems but remove yourself from this instant gratification culture and accept that okay, I need to put in time to you know some wonderful legal YouTubers out there. They're doing some amazing things.

[00:42:47] Liam Porrock, who's built one of the largest YouTube channels, Christy Wolf, they've taken many years before they got they've now got The Times recognizing them. National newspapers, giving them their flowers as they say. And I think that's amazing, but that didn't happen. That's taken years and years of graft.

[00:43:04] So it's like anything if it's worth having, you've got to put the time, energy and effort into it. I couldn't agree more with you. 

[00:43:10] Lara Quie: Yeah, it is. It's hard graft folks. And so it is effort and it is strategy though it's, doing something because you genuinely enjoy it. And I think that's the thing about you, Rob it's so evident that you just really have genuine passion for these things, and you do enjoy them. And you've really come into your own in terms of your strategy for harnessing social media and media, generally technology generally. And that is the future. And I think people shouldn't be afraid to try new things.

[00:43:41] Shouldn't be afraid to put themselves out there and to really remember that we're all different people. And we shouldn't set out to be all things to all people. We must find our own tribe and those people will like us and enjoy our content and what we put out. It's them that we have in [00:44:00] mind as well, because they're usually people like us. And, so that's what it's all about. And so I think what you've done is amazing. And it's been a joy to see your journey really. Because I think I've been following you for a few years actually, so I have seen that growth and certainly the growth in confidence and the opportunities that have come your way. And it's really great to see that. So yeah. So any last words of wisdom before we round off? 

[00:44:24] Robert Hanna: Yeah. I know we're speaking to the legal community here but try not to be afraid to take risks and to be prepared, to learn new things. They always say what's the difference between a master and a student? The master always knows that they don't know everything.

[00:44:38] I think that's important. You always stay curious, be open to learning. I think sometimes students can think that they know it all or the student will think they've got it covered. Whereas no, always be teachable, open to learning, curious, and then put yourself out of your comfort zone.

[00:44:53] So for me, I talked about it before, new level new devil. I'm working on some things now in the web 3.0 world, I'm working on some, non-fungible tokens drops as part of the community and how that's going to spear. Do I have all the answers? No, but I'm putting myself into this uncomfortable area, which is brand new technology, which I think is next generational stuff and I'm at the table and I'm not the smartest in the room.

[00:45:15] Do you know what? That's okay. So for anyone who's going through a journey, don't be afraid to put yourself in an uncomfortable position because you're only going to grow as a result of it. And you hit the nail on the head to be successful in something you have to be passionate, you have to have a passion and I am passionate about this because I do have that mission.

[00:45:34] I do enjoy what I'm doing and it's the hard work and it's the hours and it's the sweat and all of the stuff that you put into it. So whatever you choose to do, give it 110%, but make sure you know why you're doing. So, like I said, to you why am I doing all of this? My grandfather built a very successful law firm across this generation, left a legacy where people will talk about him for generations across his family.

[00:45:53] Because he had that much of an impact. That's my why, but in a digital world, Rob did good for the legal [00:46:00] community and you know what we'll remember him for it because nobody cares how much money you make or what are you going to do? It's more about that bigger impact. So whatever you choose to do in your career just understand why you're doing it. And so many people don't even know why they're a lawyer. 

[00:46:12] Lara Quie: So true. So many people fall into the law. But that's why it is important to, find your place within the legal industry. You did mention there's so many other roles other than lawyer as well. And certainly, on the Legal Genie, I always try to give voice to those people as well, but the project managers, business development, marketing, everybody in the space because ultimately the whole industry needs everybody to be working together.

[00:46:40] And it's, not just about the lawyers. It's definitely about everybody in it. So this is brilliant. I have really enjoyed our conversation today, Rob. So tell listeners where they can reach you. 

[00:46:52] Robert Hanna: Yeah firstly, I just want to say Lara, thank you ever so much for hosting me. You're a brilliant host.

[00:46:57] You're a wonderful community builder. You're a supporter and I've been following you and your journey and what you're doing. So it's been a real pleasure being on your podcast today. And I just absolutely love everything that you're doing so really appreciate you and everything you're doing. And so for people to find me, it won't surprise you, but my most common platform is LinkedIn, so it's just Robert Hanna. You can find me there, or if you want to know more about the Legally Speaking Podcast, it's just www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. Or if you want to find out more about our legal talent solutions offering, it's just www.KCPartners.com. You can find us there, but best way typically is just drop me a message on LinkedIn.

[00:47:34] Lara Quie: Brilliant. Thank you so much, Rob. So great to see you. 

[00:47:39] Robert Hanna: Thanks, Lara, thank you very much.

[00:47:41] Lara Quie: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Legal Genie Podcast. Please leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts. It helps other people in the legal industry find the show. And don't forget to share this with anyone you think would benefit from listening to it as well. Until next time, have a magical week ahead.