Founding Your Own Firm with Peter Doraisamy of PDLegal LLC - Episode 31

This week in Episode 31 of The Legal Genie Podcast, your host, Lara Quie is in conversation with Peter Doraisamy.

Peter is the Founder and Managing Partner of PDLegal LLC. Established in 2017, PDLegal is a medium-sized Singapore law firm offering a comprehensive range of legal services to its clients.

Peter shares his career journey and best advice for young lawyers. 

He shares about what it takes to start your own law firm and how to build strong foundations to make it a success. 

I hope that you enjoy this episode.

You can connect with Peter Doraisamy on LinkedIn here

And on his website here

Also:

·         If you liked this episode, please rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

·         Look out for the next episode coming soon.

You can connect with Lara Quie:

·         On LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie

·         Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

·          Or Email at Lara@LaraQAssociates.com

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Legal Genie Podcast Episode 31 with Peter Doraisamy

[00:00:00] Hello. And welcome to the legal genie podcast hosted by me, Lara Quie. 

[00:00:46] This podcast is anyone looking for some career inspiration and mentoring in the legal industry.

[00:00:53] I interview movers and shakers with interesting stories to tell about the highs and lows of their [00:01:00] careers. 

[00:01:00] They share loads of useful advice that I hope will help you to move forward in your career. 

[00:01:06] Please follow and rate and even better, leave a review on whichever platform that you're listening to this on now. 

[00:01:14] Right, on with the show.... 

[00:01:26] Lara Quie: Hello, and welcome to Episode 31 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host Lara Quie. Today I'm delighted to be joined by my former colleague and friend, Peter Doraisamy. Peter is the Founder and Managing Partner of PDLegal LLC. Established in 2017, PD legal is a medium sized Singapore law firm offering a comprehensive range of legal services to its clients.

[00:01:54] Lara Quie: Whatever the nature of the brief, the objective of the firm is to deliver personalized and approachable partner level service in a proficient and cost effective manner. The firm's practice areas include the whole breadth of law, including corporate and commercial, litigation and international arbitration, corporate secretarial services, criminal law, employment, FinTech, investment funds, insolvency and restructuring maritime and shipping and international trade.

[00:02:23] Lara Quie: The firm also has an India desk and an active China practice. And the firm is consistently recognized across all the various legal directories for its capabilities across all of these practice areas. They are very focused on serving the community and Peter himself is a very active mentor and really believes in giving back to society.

[00:02:45] Lara Quie: So, it's fantastic to hear all about your firm, Peter, but we are here to hear all about you. So welcome to the show, Peter. 

[00:02:53] Peter Doraisamy: Well, thank you so much, Lara. And thank you for inviting me onto this podcast. I feel very privileged to be on this. Thank you. [00:03:00] 

[00:03:00] Lara Quie: Well, it's great to have you on, and I'm, feeling privileged that it's one of your first podcasts, so that's a good sign.

[00:03:07] Peter Doraisamy: Indeed. 

[00:03:07] Lara Quie: So, let's hear a little bit about your family background and where you grew up. 

[00:03:12] Peter Doraisamy: Well, I'm born in Singapore. I'm actually 50 this year. So, I've reached this interesting milestone in life. And I have been a bit nostalgic actually thinking about the past. When you hit the milestone 50 years old, you think about the past.

[00:03:25] Peter Doraisamy: And I had a lovely childhood growing up, very idyllic. I lived in a public housing estate called Marine Parade. You may have heard of it. It's on the east coast. And if you come down from Changi airport and you take this highway, the East Coast Highway that brings you all the way to the CBD.

[00:03:41] Peter Doraisamy: You pass this block of flats that face the sea. And that's basically where I grew up. My parents, simple people. My mother was a kindergarten teacher. My father was with the Singapore Airlines and at one point he was a trade unionist as well for Singapore Airlines trade union.

[00:03:58] Peter Doraisamy: So, I come from a relatively humble background but I would say that my childhood was idyllic. We had the beach four or 500 meters away from where we lived. So a lot of my time was spent playing truant, running around on the beach at east coast park. So, a very enjoyable and simple childhood.

[00:04:16] Lara Quie: That does paint a very beautiful picture and I can imagine the sea being very much part of your childhood and I'm sure we'll get onto that later on. And so it doesn't sound like it was the sort of family where you probably had a lot of lawyers. So tell me about what actually inspired you to go into law in the first place?

[00:04:34] Peter Doraisamy: Well, my grandfather was a lawyer. He started off as a teacher with the Raffles Institution. He came from India in the I think just before the great depression and he came to Singapore and found a job as a teacher at Raffles Institution. And then he worked with the Ministry of Education throughout his career and at 55 rather than having a happy retirement, he had this idea to become a lawyer. So he went to England and got qualified, did the bar exams and came back, [00:05:00] started practicing law in Singapore about the age of 55. And he proceeded to practice law for the next 20 years of his life. And so I grew up meeting him very often.

[00:05:09] Peter Doraisamy: We were close, and he would impress upon me, the virtues of practice. My father on the other hand wasn't able to qualify to practice law. He came from a large family and at that time in Singapore, if you were one of the older siblings in the family, you were expected to go out and start working as soon as possible.

[00:05:29] Peter Doraisamy: So he didn't complete his A levels. He only had his O levels and therefore, he didn't have the qualifications to practice law. But what he did was while he was a trade unionist with Singapore Airlines, he would oftentimes represent his employees in employment tribunals the breach of contract, whatever it may be.

[00:05:46] Peter Doraisamy: And he used to come home and tell me about these cases. And I could see a real passion for the law in him, even though he was untrained and that I guess rubbed off on me. So, my grandfather certainly played a key role in influencing me to become a lawyer. [00:06:00] And my father being passionate about the law and about helping his workers and finding justice. I think those were the things that got me interested in practicing law. 

[00:06:08] Lara Quie: Well, I think that story about your grandfather is really inspirational. I think, the fact that he, after retiring and in his fifties already decided that it's never too late to start a brand-new career and that he launched himself in that way.

[00:06:22] Lara Quie: He went to the UK to study, he qualified as a lawyer. And then as you say, he still had a 20-year career. And I think that we need to emphasize to younger people who often in their twenties and thirties will tell us, oh, it's too late to do this and that the other, well, this is such a story that no, it is never too late.

[00:06:43] Lara Quie: And in fact, even a five year career in anything, but a good 20 year career is an incredible achievement and must have been a fantastic inspiration and mentor for you. I can imagine. 

[00:06:55] Peter Doraisamy: Indeed. I think he had very high standards. And I think he, wanted me to do well [00:07:00] in practice and he kept reminding me that whatever I do, whatever I start, make sure you finish it and make sure you have a good innings.

[00:07:09] Peter Doraisamy: Those were the things he kept impressive upon me. And I remember as a child, even, coming to his house and he would open the Straits Times and we would look at the cases that were being reported and he would discuss them with me. And we continued that sort of enjoyable conversation even after I became a lawyer, he would test me even in his seventies, he would tell me, "Have you heard of this recent case?" and I'd be a bit stunned because I hadn't, of course, but he'd read it and kept me on my toes. 

[00:07:34] Lara Quie: That sounds like a wonderful thing to have in common, but yes, sounds like he expected you to be very up on the legal columns and all latest cases. 

[00:07:43] Peter Doraisamy: Oh, he wouldn't tolerate anything less. 

[00:07:46] Lara Quie: But it's also interesting to hear about your father and how he, in his own way managed to become an advocate and very much involved in the legal side in an indirect way and how he managed to do that. So that's quite [00:08:00] interesting as well. So, thinking about this early exposure to the law, what was your path because I know that actually you chose after school to go to university in the UK. Tell me a little bit about that. 

[00:08:13] Peter Doraisamy: Well, I think even while I was doing my A levels, I knew I wanted to practice law. And unfortunately, my A level grades weren't good enough to get me into the National University of Singapore. I was given a place in the social sciences faculty. And I was thinking about doing political science. That was also an interest area. And then I went to speak to my father and my grandfather, and I said, what should I do?

[00:08:35] Peter Doraisamy: I've not got into law in Singapore. It's going to cost a lot of money to send me to the United Kingdom to do law. Should I do a first degree in social sciences, and then try and pick it up later on, maybe do an external degree and try and qualify later on? I remember what my father said.

[00:08:51] Peter Doraisamy: He told me, " Nothing doing, we'll send you to United Kingdom even if it breaks us, but you make sure that it's where money well spent." And so they made that difficult [00:09:00] decision. It was a difficult financial decision. It could have been easier if I just done the external degree or if I'd gone to NUS Singapore and then tried to pursue law later on.

[00:09:10] Peter Doraisamy: But I'm eternally grateful to my father and my grandfather for supporting me financially so that I could go and do my degree in the United Kingdom. And I think it turned out to be an excellent decision. I learned so much while I was there. I can tell you more about it as we move along.

[00:09:26] Lara Quie: I can imagine that actually, that level of support, which is so heartwarming, but at the same time does put quite a lot of pressure on you to do well and to really follow through. So when you got to university and you started your law degree, did it meet your expectations? Were you pleased that this was what you had actually chosen and invested so much in? 

[00:09:46] Peter Doraisamy: Indeed. I went to the University of Nottingham. I was fortunate enough to be able to get into that faculty. It was an excellent faculty at the time. There were many prominent professors who were teaching there at the time. I think it would've been easily one of the top 10 at the time in [00:10:00] the UK.

[00:10:00] Peter Doraisamy: So, a very enriching experience studying law in the library and going for these classes and listening to these very erudite professors. But I think also the life experience was very important. Coming from Singapore, going through the school system and then into the army, I was fairly sheltered as an individual.

[00:10:19] Peter Doraisamy: Life hadn't really thrown up too many difficult moments for me. Things were quite smooth sailing. So going to the UK for the first time, without your family settling down, meeting people from different cultures, learning to live on your own, do your own laundry, all of that sort of thing. That really helped me to grow up and mature.

[00:10:38] Peter Doraisamy: And I think one of the great things about the University of Nottingham at the time was, it had a fantastic foreign exchange student program. I think it was called Erasmus. So there were a lot of foreign students coming through and even some in the law faculty. And I had an opportunity to mix with all these people mostly Europeans and I think I learned a lot from them the cultural [00:11:00] differences the way they did their work and, their work ethic was very interesting to see their perspectives on issues.

[00:11:08] Peter Doraisamy: We used to discuss human rights issues. We would discuss public justice issues. And it just whet my appetite really for practice, where I hoped that, in practice, I would get these opportunities as well to deal with lawyers in other jurisdictions and to have very enriching experience doing that.

[00:11:24] Lara Quie: Yeah, it sounds like a fantastic international experience. But as you say, the, going away from your family, achieving that independence, mixing with so many different people, expanding your mind, that really is the value of university in terms of the life experience that it gives you. And so you must have come back to Singapore with quite a different mindset. What did you feel when you came back? 

[00:11:51] Peter Doraisamy: Yeah, it was almost a culture shock. I know that's hard to understand because I am a Singaporean after all. I spent all my early life here, but when I came back, having [00:12:00] been exposed in the UK to a very different environment. Coming back, I think, was a little bit of a culture shock.

[00:12:05] Peter Doraisamy: But, of course, I grew used to it very quickly. But I did think quite hard about whether I wanted to return to the UK and practice in the UK rather than staying on in Singapore. And I thought long and hard about it. I spoke to my parents. I spoke to my grandfather and the advice to me was this, "Look, get qualified in your own jurisdiction first. This is your home ground. You know the culture here, the people here, how things work here, chances are if you put your mind to it, you'll be successful as a lawyer in Singapore. If you go to the United Kingdom or Australia or some other jurisdiction, you will meet new and fresh challenges. Are you ready for them? And also your family is here." 

[00:12:44] Peter Doraisamy: So I thought long and hard and I said, no, I'll give Singapore a shot. Let me get qualified in this jurisdiction. Let me practice here first and let's see how things go. And as it turns out, I never ever thought of leaving because I thought that here was very good indeed. And I continue to think so.[00:13:00] 

[00:13:00] Lara Quie: It sounds like those were really wise words actually. And instrumental obviously in your future career and staying in Singapore. So let's talk a bit about pupillage and articles, how you actually qualified and where you started out.

[00:13:15] Peter Doraisamy: Okay. When I came back I, thought that I would want to become a criminal lawyer. It was an area that really interested me. So, I joined for my pupillage, a gentleman by the name of Palakrishnanan, who at that time, I would think would've been one of Singapore's top criminal lawyers. He would then go on to become a senior counsel and he was also a President of the Law Society.

[00:13:36] Peter Doraisamy: So I was very privileged to be able to practice with him. And I did my pupillage with him, but what I quickly realized after doing some capital cases. He had murder cases, rape cases, drug trafficking cases. We would go to Changi and visit the client, who, in many instances was awaiting the gallows.

[00:13:53] Peter Doraisamy: And I realized that I didn't have the stomach for this. You go and see someone in remand, or you go and see someone in prison [00:14:00] and you take their instructions. And after a while you find you have a bond with them. And when you know that this person is potentially facing a death sentence, life and limbs at stake, It's difficult.

[00:14:11] Peter Doraisamy: And I realized that I didn't have the stomach for it. And I remember this incident, which I think put that thought in my mind forever. We were doing a murder case and in this case, the victim's head had been decapitated. So what the police will do is that as you prepare the case, they'll send you photographs of the victim's body.

[00:14:33] Peter Doraisamy: And it comes in an album. Those days we wouldn't send things electronically because we couldn't. So it came in an album, like your family album, with all your lovely pictures. But when you open this album, it's picture after picture of the most gruesome things that you'd ever see.

[00:14:47] Peter Doraisamy: And I looked at it and said, no, I think not criminal practice. I might be better off doing civil practice. And I think probably the right position because I know many good criminal practitioners and I am not of the same ilk, for sure.[00:15:00] Yeah. So after pupillage, I decided to practice civil law commercial law and commercial litigation. Yeah. 

[00:15:07] Lara Quie: That does sound something that would put anyone off. Yes. You probably afraid to open any photo albums from then on I can imagine. But anyway, so when you then made that decision and you were focused on civil law and just general corporate and dispute resolution. What was your next step? What sort of firm did you move into and how did you proceed? 

[00:15:33] Peter Doraisamy: First, I want to say that finding a job at that time was a challenge. So I wasn't retained after puipllage. I had to go and find a job. And this was during the Asian currency crisis, '98- '99. And at that time, I think a lot of law firms were concerned.

[00:15:50] Peter Doraisamy: The economic outlook was a little bleak and they weren't hiring. And because I wasn't retained, I had to come quite late, cap in hand, looking for a job. [00:16:00] Many firms had already hired, so hire difficulty. But I think, looking back, it was a blessing in disguise because I think it steeled me even more that this is what I want to do and no one's going to stop me.

[00:16:12] Peter Doraisamy: I'm going to find a good job and I'm going to practice. So, for our young listeners out there, I think it's important that sometimes when we have these setbacks in life, we must look at them as a blessing in disguise for the long run, because it will improve you. It will steel you. It will give you courage fortitude to carry on.

[00:16:29] Peter Doraisamy: Of course, we shouldn't shirk, it and we shouldn't melt. And at that time that you should seek out mentors, friends, others for support emotional, as well as support in terms of helping you to get a job. And I can remember that there were people who were really trying to look out for me. And eventually I found a place in a good law firm that practiced very well in civil litigation.

[00:16:50] Peter Doraisamy: They had a very strong property disputes practice cause they had an excellent conveyancing department at the time. So I found myself then doing lots of property related cases, landlord [00:17:00] tenant, et cetera, et cetera. And, that's basically where I started. 

[00:17:04] Lara Quie: I think the point that you make about having good mentors and support is very important because, within the story that you've told already, there were quite a number of obstacles.

[00:17:13] Lara Quie: It wasn't so plain sailing. You didn't just walk into the first thing. You mentioned your, degree, not initially getting into NUS and certainly in Singapore, that's a really big deal. Every young person aspires to go to NUS. And so that must have been a bit of a blow to your personal spirit and your feeling of self worth, but having good counsel from your grandfather and your father being able to say there are alternatives. Don't just think about this one thing. There are other paths you can choose and actually we'll support you in your decision. You were able to go to Nottingham, you came back to Singapore, you thought you'd try your hand at criminal law, found it wasn't for you. Again, these are decisions.

[00:17:55] Lara Quie: You take a chance, you try it out and if it doesn't fit, you move on and that's [00:18:00] what you did. And you found yourself suffering the situation. It was a hard time to get a job, but that didn't put you off. You found something and then you were in conveyancing, a very different area to criminal law and something interesting. But I know that wasn't your end goal. So what happened after that?

[00:18:18] Peter Doraisamy: I would just say this. I always felt privileged to be able to go to the United Kingdom and study law because I had friends who didn't have the financial means to do it. And a number of them went and did the external law degree with the London University at that time.

[00:18:33] Peter Doraisamy: And up to about quite recent, maybe about 10 years back, you could qualify to practice at the Singapore bar if you had obtained an external degree from the University of London. So I had friends who were studying in Singapore, they were working part-time and they were struggling to get through their law degree. They were going to private schools here in Singapore, and I'm glad to say they all made it. And some of them today are extremely successful [00:19:00] practitioners at the bar. So I think my hat's off to them because they did it without having gone to study law full-time. They were doing it part-time. Yeah. But I, forget your question now. 

[00:19:11] Lara Quie: So did you remain with that law firm, or did you go onto a different firm? 

[00:19:15] Peter Doraisamy: So, one day a case came onto my desk. It was a shipping related dispute. Strangely enough, it was in relation to paint. So the dispute centred around paint that had been used by a shipyard to paint a ship. And the owner of the ship was saying that this paint is off specification. So this case no one wanted to do it and it fell on my lap.

[00:19:35] Peter Doraisamy: And I said, all right, I'll and then I started reading into the file and it started to fascinate me this industry. And I realized that I would like to practice shipping But at that time, I'm talking about the early two thousands shipping was a very much a desired practice area. If I could use the word, it was a very sexy choice.

[00:19:55] Peter Doraisamy: Today we have international arbitration, high end corporate work. I think the young ones coming [00:20:00] through are interested in these areas. But back in my time, if you were shipping lawyer, you'd be bees knees. Shipping work was exciting. It was cross jurisdictional and you needed to be pretty good to get into a shipping law firm.

[00:20:12] Peter Doraisamy: And so I, decided that I wanted to pursue a career in shipping law and I started applying and thankfully I was able to get a position in a firm called Joseph Tan Jude Benny, which at that time was one of the premier shipping law firms in Singapore. It continues to be even till today. I was fortunate to get in and I started then in my third year practicing shipping law.

[00:20:31] Peter Doraisamy: Having said that, the partners at the firm didn't immediately give you the work because it was important work for the firm. They were acting for marine insurers. They were acting for ship owners in complex difficult cases. And they weren't just going to give any new associate a chance to work on these files.

[00:20:48] Peter Doraisamy: You had to earn the right so to speak. And so I had to do that. I had to convince my partners that I was good enough to handle the difficult shipping work in the firm. So that was another [00:21:00] challenge. It doesn't mean you get into the firm, you're automatically going to be allowed to do the best work that the firm had to offer. You'd have to earn that right. 

[00:21:07] Lara Quie: Yeah. That's quite interesting actually, because I imagine, you came in as an associate, so, quite junior that they were there to nurture you and encourage your talent and get you involved, make sure that you were involved, but it sounds like you had to really prove yourself. How did you go about doing that? 

[00:21:25] Peter Doraisamy: Well, I think the firm I was in, they had very experienced shipping lawyers there. They were great mentors. They had a very good client base, but as I said before, they would hand you this work, they needed to know that you could do it.

[00:21:36] Peter Doraisamy: So what I realized was that I hadn't had any experience with shipping law. So I started to read. I picked up the main practitioner's texts on the subject. And it's a pretty wide subject. You've got maritime law, you've got admiralty law, and I started to read and started to gain a bit of confidence in how you go about doing the work.

[00:21:56] Peter Doraisamy: And then slowly but surely, I started to get a few files and [00:22:00] I started to get the opportunity to work with my partners on interesting admiralty cases, shipping cases, continuing to do commercial cases as well. And then the confidence started to grow. I started to learn how to deal with clients in this industry.

[00:22:12] Peter Doraisamy: They're very demanding at least at that time. And I'm sure they continue to be. A lot is at stake, especially if you do work for marine insurers. They demand a very high standard of work. It's a competitive area. There are many firms, good shipping firms who want that work and you've got to be good at it.

[00:22:27] Peter Doraisamy: So, the standards that you have to display in the advice you give, the correspondence, your emails short, sharp to the point, concise and full of good commercial advice. So that's, basically what you'd have to do to earn the respect of the marine insurers and the claims managers who were operating at the time.

[00:22:46] Lara Quie: That's an important point you make about investing your time in learning your craft by doing the reading and educating yourself in your specific chosen area. And I think a lot of people try to move [00:23:00] into an area without doing the legwork without doing the investment in learning that's required.

[00:23:06] Lara Quie: And obviously in those times you couldn't just turn to YouTube. So you had to really get down with the books, but if you think of the opportunities these days for acquiring knowledge through the internet, through podcasts. There's bound to be some sort of marine insurers special podcast that you can listen to, to understand industry jargon. Understand what matters to these people.

[00:23:30] Lara Quie: What are the challenges, et cetera. So these days there's just no excuse for people not gaining an industry insight and understanding the commercial realities, because you can literally get on the internet and find all of this. And so that's quite important, because it is hard work and people need to know that they need to make that effort.

[00:23:49] Lara Quie: I'm glad that you made that point. So you, found yourself doing all of this shipping law at Joseph Tan Jude Benny, but I do know that you actually decided to do something a little bit [00:24:00] different after that. So tell me about KS Energy Services Limited. 

[00:24:04] Peter Doraisamy: I practiced with Joseph Tan Jude Benny for about five years. I was already a senior associate by that time four or five years. And then perhaps I started to feel a little jaded. I had just gotten married. I had a young child, and I was concerned about my career progression at the time. And then this head-hunter came along and he said, "look, I have the promise land for you. Come and join this company as their in-house legal counsel. You'd be paid well. And you would progress your career very well." 

[00:24:34] Peter Doraisamy: And at that time with a young child and newly married, obviously finances were a concern. So I decided to take the leap, leave practice, and join public listed company as in-house counsel.

[00:24:46] Peter Doraisamy: And that company was very active in the offshore oil and gas industry. And the, role seemed very interesting because not only were they asking me to manage their ongoing litigation and arbitration matters, but they also required me to do corporate [00:25:00] work, which is something I'd never done. And I had this concern and I even spoke to the CEO at the time who continues to be my friend till today.

[00:25:07] Peter Doraisamy: And I told him, I said, "look, I've been only doing litigation. You guys are expecting me to draft joint venture agreements, shareholders agreements, all types of complex corporate transactional documents on top of that, because you are a listed company listed on the Singapore stock exchange, I've got to have one eye on all the regulations that you need to comply with the listing manual, et cetera." And the CEO told me, he said, "well, you take it in your stride, and I'll mentor you." So, going in house, I was very fortunate that the CEO of the company and indeed a number of the other board directors, who I worked closely with turned out to be really excellent mentors.

[00:25:41] Peter Doraisamy: And although I only stayed in house for about a year and a half, I would say those one and a half years taught me a lot about practice, ironically outside of practice. And I can tell you why very quickly. I started to interact as in house lawyer. You need to start giving up instructions.

[00:25:57] Peter Doraisamy: So I started to interact with lawyers in [00:26:00] practice and good lawyers at that from some of the largest firms in Singapore, including offshore firms, and I started to learn so much from them. How they dealt with the client and internally because I had to sit in on board meetings, I had to interact daily with the directors, as they went about doing business. I learned what are their concerns from a client perspective.

[00:26:19] Peter Doraisamy: And that gave me invaluable insights into how clients think and how therefore lawyers should respond. And I started to see the importance of commerciality in your advice. And therefore, it truncated this learning process for me. But after one and a half years, and I, had an excellent time.

[00:26:38] Peter Doraisamy: I travelled a lot because they, were doing deals and transactions all over the world. But I realized quite quickly that I needed to return to private practice because the excitement of private practice, the challenges of private practice, just seemed too alluring to me.

[00:26:52] Lara Quie: It sounds like there's some lessons in that initial grass is always greener when the recruitment consultant approaches [00:27:00] you and, offers you something exciting. But at the same time, you really learned some very valuable lessons. And certainly, I would say that a stint in house for anybody who is particularly in the corporate area of practice is absolutely invaluable because being on the other side of the table, being the client, seeing how other firms act when they're responding to you, when they are receiving instructions from you and what are they delivering? What do you notice about their advice?

[00:27:31] Lara Quie: As you say, what you were looking for as the client was commercial, practical, succinct advice that you could act on immediately take to your board. And there you were at the table, speaking to the business, people understanding the real challenges. There's a merger here, there's an acquisition there, there's this and that the other, as you mentioned, traveling all over the world. Sounds quite glamorous, but at the same time, what did that look like? [00:28:00] Really, behind the scenes for an in-house lawyer and ultimately having had that experience, you were able to say, This was great. I learned so much, but actually I do think I am a private practice lawyer.

[00:28:13] Lara Quie: And so you took the experience that you had, which ultimately made you a much better lawyer from a client perspective. So what happened next? 

[00:28:23] Peter Doraisamy: So after I left my in-house role and I made sure I left on good terms. And I had this urge to start my own practice. And so I went and met an old colleague of mine from Joseph Tan Jude Benny, who had set up his own practice. And I said, "look, can I join you?" He said, "well, of course you can, but do you have any clients? You're going to start your own practice." I said, "oh, I haven't thought about that. Well, no, I don't. 

[00:28:48] Peter Doraisamy: He said, "well what, do you think your potential is? "Well, I said, " I might have some good potential because I understand how the industry works. I have this ability, I believe, nascent as it may be, [00:29:00] to give good commercial advice. I'll give it a shot. And so he said, "come and join me as a partner."

[00:29:04] Peter Doraisamy: And when I told this company that I've been with, I said, "look guys, thank you very much, but I've got to return to my roots. I've gotta go back to practice." And they looked at me and said, "look, if we can't convince you to stay, can you make us your first client?" And I was stunned. And they said, " we like the fact that you have done good work for us. And we want you to continue advising on matters going forward. And also ensure that when the new in-house counsel comes on board, he has you as a resource." 

[00:29:31] Peter Doraisamy: So that was how I had my first time. My first client was the company I worked for and it started from there. So I spent four years working with my former partner and we built the firm.

[00:29:41] Peter Doraisamy: And then this opportunity came to join Duane Morris & Selvam at the time, which had just in 2011, had just entered into a joint law venture approved by the Ministry of Law to set up a joint law practice. Duane Morris was a large US based, Philadelphia based national firm that wanted to internationalize its practice and had [00:30:00] already done so to a certain extent. Selvam, as some of you may know, was an excellent corporate practice. Arfat Selvam was a renowned corporate lawyer, particularly in the area of capital markets, but what they didn't have was a litigation practice. And so they said to me would you like to come over and start up this litigation practice with us?

[00:30:18] Peter Doraisamy: And I thought that was an opportunity too good to refuse. So that's how it started in 2011 joining what was essentially a corporate practice to try and start up a litigation practice. It was very exciting at the time. 

[00:30:30] Lara Quie: Yeah, it sounds very exciting. And so that sounds like you probably needed to do quite a lot of business development. Because there you were in this new firm, you were the litigation department. What steps did you take to build your profile and start to get work? I imagine you probably already had that client. Maybe you brought them with you. But how did you get new work? What was your strategy? 

[00:30:55] Peter Doraisamy: Well, along the way, after I left inhouse, before I joined Duane Morris & Selvam in [00:31:00] 2011, I had no choice, but to go out and network and do business development and try and build a client base. And I was relatively successful in doing that. But when I joined Duane Morris & Selvam, I was going to have to up my game. This was a very good law firm that tied up with an international firm. The standard of work that they would have to produce would have to be higher than what I'd been used to practicing out a small firm, local firm in Singapore.

[00:31:23] Peter Doraisamy: So I looked at the situation and I realized, let's go for the low hanging fruit. What's the low hanging fruit here? This firm has a tremendous following of corporate clients. Let us see if we can monetize that network, that existing network through disputes work. So I worked closely with my corporate partners and they were very cooperative.

[00:31:44] Peter Doraisamy: They said, "look, this is the list of clients that we have, who we do corporate work for. Let's go and meet them and let's have you introduced to them. And let's see if they would be prepared to give us some of their disputes work." So we started that and we were successful because ultimately the client already knew [00:32:00] the firm.

[00:32:00] Peter Doraisamy: They knew the quality of the work that was being done by its corporate lawyers. We needed to convince them that we could also do their disputes work. And once we started, a client will always start you small. They won't start you with a big brief. You have to convince them that you can give them accurate advice, with a commercial again, a commercial slant.

[00:32:19] Peter Doraisamy: And once we were able to do that, we got the ball rolling and more and more clients started to come through the door for disputes work. That's how it began. 

[00:32:26] Lara Quie: Yeah, so that's collaboration and really, as you say, starting small building up, proving yourself. But with that very commercial mindset and I think we are in the legal industry, there is a lot about producing the evidence convincing people, really living up to what you promised to deliver.

[00:32:48] Lara Quie: So yeah, that kind of business development, it does take a lot of time and effort and patience. And I think that's what young people need to learn that it's very much something that you need to [00:33:00] do on a very regular basis. It's not about, oh, I'm not busy tomorrow, so I'm going to do business development.

[00:33:06] Lara Quie: This is something that you need to have in the back of your mind constantly, and to be consistently nurturing those relationships so that you manage your pipeline of work and you keep that flow always on that tap, always running. You were there for a number of years but let's talk about what happened next.

[00:33:25] Peter Doraisamy: Well, I spent six very good years with the firm and then I started to have this itch and no matter how much I scratched it, it wouldn't go away. And that itch was about starting my own practice. So it was very much a pull factor for me to leave. I had this idea that I could start my own practice.

[00:33:42] Peter Doraisamy: Build a firm around my own vision of what I believe practice should be about. And I had already by then been in practice for about 17 years. So, so I wasn't wet behind the ears. At all. I had already a good client base and I thought, "why don't I give it a shot? Start my own [00:34:00] practice." And I have to say that when I presented this idea to my partners, they were very encouraging, and that was nice to see.

[00:34:07] Peter Doraisamy: And they wished me well. And so the idea was born to start my own practice. But it took quite a bit of time to come to that decision. At that time in 2017, when I started, I had four young children. Today, they are aged between 10 and 16, my wife was a homemaker.

[00:34:22] Peter Doraisamy: So that was a big financial burden on me. I have many dependents and certainly this is not a decision you make flippantly. So to anyone who wants to start your own practice, think hard about all, many different aspects that you need to think about, but you need to think about your own personal financial situation as well, most importantly and, then work from there.

[00:34:41] Peter Doraisamy: Yeah. So, obviously an open offer to anyone who wants to start their own practice. I'll be happy to give you my views on it.

[00:34:48] Lara Quie: So what kind of initial challenges were there to setting up? It sounded like you had built your reputation in the market. You had got the experience you required, good client [00:35:00] base. What were the initial things that were very difficult when you had your own firm?

[00:35:05] Peter Doraisamy: Yeah. Lawyers have this problem, and this of course is a sweeping generalization. We're not necessarily the best business people. Okay. So typically for what I have seen in practice, lawyers tend to build their house with the roof first. What do I mean by that? We think that if we bring in clients, we bring in business, we'll be fine.

[00:35:23] Peter Doraisamy: So we start to build this roof over our heads. But a roof needs a foundation. If you don't have a good foundation, your roof is gonna collapse in one day when it becomes too big. I realized this and I had gone to see quite a number of senior lawyers before I started my own firm.

[00:35:41] Peter Doraisamy: And I asked them for pearls of wisdom, and this is one thing again, a number of mentors. And I must say I've been very fortunate that throughout my career, senior lawyers, that I've come across have always been so generous with their sharing, been so helpful. Many of them have gone out of their way, and that's one of the great things about practice in Singapore.

[00:35:59] Peter Doraisamy: And I'm [00:36:00] sure in other jurisdictions that we have this group of senior lawyers who are so generous and caring and wanting the best for the profession. So this advice came to me and I said, Peter, before you build the house, make sure you have a good foundation. Now, what does that mean in terms of practice?

[00:36:16] Peter Doraisamy: How are you going to administer the firm effectively? What technology are you going to purchase and put in place? What systems and processes are you going to have? How are you going to ensure that your accounts are done properly, especially your client account? How do you ensure that your hiring processes are correct?

[00:36:34] Peter Doraisamy: Do you have human resources proper human resources management in place? This is of course an ongoing process, but really to have a good law firm for the long run, you do need to build a very solid foundation. And I would say the cornerstone has to be you. You are the one starting the law firm. So you need to make sure as the cornerstone that you are ready for this, do you have the right skill set?

[00:36:59] Peter Doraisamy: Are you [00:37:00] fully conversant with all the rules, which govern the way you practice? How the firm should be run? And there are many, and it's very easy to slip up if, you're not careful. Everything from AML to how you open a file KYC. Do your people know about conflicts? All of these things had to be put in place.

[00:37:17] Peter Doraisamy: And so that was really the uppermost in my mind, when I set up my practice. How would I make sure that it would be run well for the future? And that therefore, we can slowly but surely build the layers upon this strong foundation. That was my chief concern. 

[00:37:33] Lara Quie: Well, I love that analogy of building your house and definitely, digging deep to put in strong foundations.

[00:37:40] Lara Quie: And yes, the lawyers of today generally do focus on the idea of the work, so long as I have the work, that's all that matters, but it's true. The legal profession is highly regulated. There are many challenges when it comes to anti-money laundering and all sorts and managing the client account monies, et cetera.

[00:37:58] Lara Quie: Also [00:38:00] employees, they do say that the hardest part about a business is always the employees. So, managing people, hiring people well, making sure that they know what they're doing. Quality people, good training, good support, and building a company culture. And so yes, you as managing partner have to be that person, that leader, the person who walks the talk and leads by example.

[00:38:24] Lara Quie: And I think that, knowing that and being conscious of it and doing the learning required so that you understand what's involved in running a firm, it is as you said, not an undertaking to be undertaken lightly at all. And so now that you've been established though, a number of years, what have been the things that have been the most satisfying in your role as managing partner?

[00:38:48] Peter Doraisamy: Well, that's a tough question. There have been many things that have been satisfying and many downs as well. But I think what has given me greatest pleasure is to see people who joined me when they were young five [00:39:00] years ago, that they have blossomed that they have done well in their own right. That has given me tremendous satisfaction.

[00:39:05] Peter Doraisamy: That's a feeling I don't take money can buy. They took a risk to join me and they relied on me to bring them through, to supervise them, to mentor them, guide them. And when I see them doing well blossoming, that's fantastic. 

[00:39:17] Lara Quie: That's right. I think that at the end of the day, it is all about these opportunities to nurture someone, to coach someone, to really help them succeed.

[00:39:28] Lara Quie: And when you've got your own firm and you train someone and bring them up and, you launch them. It's hard because ultimately sometimes they do have to leave, they're ready to fly on, to try different things. It's important as you did yourself to experience different types of practice, especially, as we mentioned, to go in-house is a great move from private practice, especially at four, five years qualification. It's a very good thing to do. So, you must always have very mixed feelings when someone comes to you and they go, "Peter, do you mind if we have a quick conversation?"[00:40:00] 

[00:40:02] Peter Doraisamy: Yeah no, it's tough because you feel, we are all human beings. We are emotion. So when someone is leaving, you feel sad, because you've worked with that person. And we, as lawyers, when we work together with our juniors, we work with each other. We really do spend a lot of time with each other. I always tell my colleagues, I spend more time with you than I do with my family, and so we really do develop bonds. And as a senior, we really do want to try and download as much as we can into our juniors and make sure that they are on the right track. So there's this initial feeling of disappointment and sadness, but then it's also this feeling of excitement for someone who you have trained and you have mentor is now ready to go onto the next stage of their own career development and there's excitement for them.

[00:40:43] Peter Doraisamy: And I think the best way to deal with it is to say, look, let us leave on good terms. Let us ensure that we stay in touch and let us ensure that in future we can continue to collaborate. So, while someone leaving an organization is not good for the organization. We've got to flip it [00:41:00] the other way and say, look, can we build a strong alumni as well? Because it is this alumni that has worked with us that understands what this firm can and cannot do, understands the quality of work and can in future become a client of the firm, or can become someone who collaborates very well with the firm and gives opportunities to the firm. So I always say to my friends who come and see me sometimes say, "oh my very good junior is leaving me."

[00:41:25] Peter Doraisamy: I said, "well, let's look at it as an opportunity for the future. And it's not unheard of that people come and re-join you after a while because they see, perhaps I'm ready to come back to this organization that I spent my formative, years in, and I'm ready to give it a second shot. That can happen as well.

[00:41:40] Peter Doraisamy: The last thing you should do when you leave an organization, both of employer and employee, do not burn any bridges. Don't do that. Always leave on good terms. 

[00:41:50] Lara Quie: That's absolutely invaluable advice. Really key to ensuring that the time spent together was always pleasant and that, yeah, the [00:42:00] memories are good.

[00:42:01] Lara Quie: But as you say, leaving that door open. Throughout my career, I've heard of people who returned to their original organization because I already mentioned, the concept of the grass is always greener. Sometimes you don't know a good thing until you don't have it anymore, but it's also really important to go on a learning journey and everybody needs to do that journey. And it's good to know though that when somebody takes a risk, because it's always a risk to leave a, company when you're feeling ready and you want to do that, they should be supported in that and they can go off and they can learn new things.

[00:42:37] Lara Quie: But the fact is that if that door is always open, they can come back and again, they, might only stay for a year. But again, it's knowing that the place is still there for them and that that is an opportunity. And so it de-risks things. And I think that is very important for lawyers because most lawyers have quite risk averse.

[00:42:55] Lara Quie: So the idea that, well, if it all, doesn't work out, you can still come back. [00:43:00] I think it's real comfort. And it's something that really gives young lawyers that opportunity to thrive and throw themselves into the new opportunity. But knowing the safety net is there. And I think that they will really value that and your mentoring, Peter, I think the kind of firm, the culture that you're creating at your firm is one really is focused on the nurturing, the value that you received from so many mentors yourself, you understood that value. You really value it. And you are also trying to give back now that you, yourself are becoming more senior as well.

[00:43:34] Lara Quie: And so as we're just rounding off the podcast, I'm wondering if you've got maybe just a couple more tips for young people. What are the things that you wish you had known when let's say you were, I don't know, four or five years qualified?

[00:43:47] Peter Doraisamy: That's a question for a whole new podcast. There are a few topics if we have a bit of time. I think the first idea is this concept of work life balance. This is a trite phrase now, and I have people coming to [00:44:00] interview with me and they ask me, what's the work life balance like in your firm?

[00:44:04] Peter Doraisamy: And I have to be brutally honest with them and I tell them, look, this firm doesn't have a work life balance. We have work. And then we have life. There's no balance. I think the way to look at it is this practice is very demanding. And in the fact that it's so demanding, it is also so satisfying and enriching.

[00:44:21] Peter Doraisamy: It's a two-way street as such. So I always tell people when they asking me all this work life balance, things, think about your practice career and your life in practice as a continuing journey. You're not going to stop on this journey. You have to keep walking. But what we need to do is find pockets of time in your work day, in your work week, in your work month and in your work year to find the time to be able to enjoy life and to do all the other things you need to do: comply with your responsibilities to your family, to your friends, to your causes in your life, your hobbies.

[00:44:55] Peter Doraisamy: And of course, your loved ones. But I don't think you can separate the two.[00:45:00] So, I have a young family with four children. I've had to learn the hard way. How do I manage this family of mine? My wife and her demands. My children have demands as well as running practice. And I come up with this idea of pocket of time.

[00:45:14] Peter Doraisamy: So when I have a free moment, I will see to something that needs to be done. Make sure you don't miss that kid's birthday. Make sure you don't miss the soccer game. You know where he's playing. You've got to find the time to go and do that and then jump back onto your work. And if you can do that and manage your time, well, you will find that after a while, you get very good at managing your workload and managing all the other aspects of life that give you such pleasure in life.

[00:45:43] Peter Doraisamy: So that's the real key skillset that we need to develop as lawyers and indeed in any other demanding career. So that's the first piece of advice I'd give. The second piece of advice is this. And it's about mentorship. So we a recurring theme through this podcast the theme of [00:46:00] mentorship. Now I have a slightly different view.

[00:46:02] Peter Doraisamy: Yes, you need someone above you mentoring you at all times. So usually if you are a trainee, a supervising solicitor. If you are a team of lawyers, a department in the law firm, it's your supervising partner, but that should not be your only mentor. In fact, you will find that there are mentors everywhere.

[00:46:19] Peter Doraisamy: Even you, Lara, have been a mentor to me while we were working together. As colleagues, I learned a lot from you. So look everywhere and around you for mentors and you will find them. You will find them sometimes, even in clients who tell you what they need in terms of advice, in terms of industry specific knowledge that will help you to grow.

[00:46:38] Peter Doraisamy: You will find mentors in your opponents in court. I've learned so much from my opponents. They don't even know they're my mentors, but actually they are because when I read their pleadings, I read the way they've structured their written submissions. I read the way they've structured their arguments and their case theory.

[00:46:53] Peter Doraisamy: I'm learning from them via osmosis. I'm watching them in court. The good and the bad. I learn [00:47:00] terms of phrases from excellent lawyers who I've seen cross-examine. These are your mentors. They just don't know it. So look around you all the time and pick up the best things you can learn from people around you and observe.

[00:47:14] Peter Doraisamy: And then go back and do your own reading, improve, apply what you have learned over time. So that's the second sound bite I could give. And I think we should stop there. I've We've run out of time. We could have this chat all day. With you I can always go on talking. 

[00:47:31] Lara Quie: I think it's absolutely fantastic advice. You are right. Everyone should look for opportunities to learn throughout their day. As you say, every single person you meet in your day could share something that's valuable just by observing them, even things that you know, people do that you don't want to copy. You can learn by the way that people speak to each other.

[00:47:54] Lara Quie: You can learn by noticing somebody's emotional intelligence the tone that they use, the [00:48:00] advocacy they're using, the submissions they've written, what are the good things? What are the bad things? What can you take away? You talked about, pockets of time, but I'm also thinking of pockets of knowledge, those pearls of wisdom you mentioned picking up each little pearl and putting it in your pocket. Things to store for later for you to get out your little personal toolkit and having your personal board of advisors. And as you said, so many of them don't even know it. And so that's, a really good point because, we do talk about mentors and obviously there are formal mentors, many law firms have very formal structures in place.

[00:48:36] Lara Quie: So this person's assigned to you. They're your mentor. You go for lunch with them every quarter. That's great. Use that. If you have that, you should. Yeah. You don't have that. It's not a problem. You can find people that you aspire to be like or things that you notice about certain people and then have the formal mentors and the informal mentors and use the YouTube and use podcasts like these and, just [00:49:00] create your own learning journey.

[00:49:02] Lara Quie: So it is about taking control, being the master of your own destiny. And you have certainly done that, Peter, you have been the ship's captain sailing your own ship forward, the good ship PDLegal. And it's been a pleasure to have you on the show. So please just tell everybody how people can reach you if they want to connect with you.

[00:49:22] Peter Doraisamy: Well, many ways today we are so connected. LinkedIn is a great way. very open to getting connected on LinkedIn. You could just send me an email. My web profile is on my website and my email address and even my mobile number is there. So get in touch whenever you, feel you need some advice, obviously if it's a work related matter, we should maintain confidentiality at all times. And if we were to speak about a difficult case that you are handling, if you're a young lawyer and you need some advice, and if you need career advice, of course there's always Lara, who's so happy to help, but if you feel that I can contribute in some [00:50:00] small way to enlightening you about next steps in your career, et cetera, please feel free to contact me. Not an issue. 

[00:50:07] Lara Quie: That is very generous of you, Peter. I'm sure you'll be inundated by emails after this and LinkedIn connections. So thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. 

[00:50:17] Peter Doraisamy: Again. Thank you, Lara, for inviting me onto this podcast. And I hope that you have many more and there are many good senior lawyers and, indeed people in other professions that can contribute so much. And I hope you get in touch with them. And may this continue, I think this is a great resource for young people, young lawyers, and indeed people in other professions as well. I wish you all the best. Thank you. 

[00:50:38] Lara Quie: Thank you very much.

[00:50:39] Lara Quie: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Legal Genie Podcast. Please leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts. It helps other people in the legal industry find the show. And don't forget to share this with anyone you think would benefit from listening to it as well. Until next time, have a magical week ahead. [00:51:00]