Being an Honest Lawyer with Bazul Ashhab of Oon & Bazul LLP - Episode 35

In Episode 35 of The Legal Genie Podcast, your host, Lara Quie is in conversation with Bazul Ashhab.  

Bazul is a lawyer and co-founder of the largest conflict-free law firm in Singapore, Oon & Bazul LLP. It is a firm ranked by the Straits Times in 2022 as one of Singapore’s Best Law Firms. 

Together with his partner, Oon Thian Seng, he founded the firm twenty years ago in 2002.

Since then, it has grown to 19 partners, 65 lawyers and 110 staff. 

Bazul is the firm’s Managing Partner and Head of Dispute Resolution leading its litigation and international arbitration practices.

He specialises in commercial litigation, arbitration and mediation. 

His areas of practice include company law, international trade, shipping, banking, trade finance, shareholders’ disputes, insurance, insolvency, civil fraud, asset recovery and breach of fiduciary duties.

Asia Business Law Journal ranks Bazul as one of Singapore’s top 100 lawyers and he was awarded the Singapore Managing Partner of the Year award in 2018. 

Bazul was appointed as an Ambassador to the Singapore International Mediation Centre panel in recognition of his leadership in alternative dispute resolution in Singapore and the Asia Pacific region. 

 Bazul shares about his journey into law and who inspired him to be a shipping lawyer.

He talks about starting his own firm when only 4 years qualified and how he grew his client base.

He shares about the secret to being a good lawyer and winning new clients.

He is passionate about embracing technology and ensuring there is good communication amongst his team.

I hope that you enjoy this episode.

You can visit Bazul's profile here and connect wit him as follows:

What's App: +65 9757 1479

Email: bazul@oonbazul.com

LinkedIn: Bazul Ashhab

Also:

If you liked this episode, please rate the show and leave a review wherever you listen to the show to help The Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

You can also support the show by buying Lara a Coffee here:

Look out for the next episode coming soon.

You can connect with Lara Quie on LinkedIn or on via her website: https://www.LaraQAssociates.com 

Or email Lara@LaraQAssociates.com  

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

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Transcript

Legal Genie Podcast Episode 35 with Bazul Ashhab, Managing Partner of Oon & Bazul LLP in Singapore 

[00:00:00] Hello. And welcome to the Legal Genie Podcast hosted by me, Lara Quie. 

[00:00:46] This podcast is for anyone looking for some career inspiration and mentoring in the legal industry.

[00:00:54] I interview movers and shakers with interesting stories to tell about the highs and lows of their careers. 

[00:01:01] They share loads of useful advice that I hope will help you to move forward in your career. 

[00:01:07] Please follow and rate and even better, leave a review on whichever platform that you're listening to this on now. 

[00:01:14] Right, on with the show.... Hello and welcome to the Legal Genie Podcast, Episode 35 with me, your host, Lara Quie. And today, I have the pleasure of being with Bazul Ashhab. Bazul is a lawyer and co-founder of the largest conflict-free law firm in Singapore, Oon & Bazul.

[00:01:45] Lara Quie: It's a firm ranked by the Straits Times in 2022 as one of Singapore's best law firms, and together with his partner, Oon Thian Seng, he founded the firm 20 years ago in 2002, and since then it has grown to 19 partners and over 50 lawyers.

[00:02:04] Bazul is the firm's Managing Partner and Head of Dispute Resolution, leading its litigation and international arbitration practices. He specializes in commercial litigation, arbitration and mediation, and his areas of practice include company law, international trade, shipping, banking, trade finance, shareholders disputes, insurance insolvency, civil fraud, asset recovery, and breach of fiduciary duties.

[00:02:33] Asia Business Law Journal ranks Bazul as one of Singapore's top 100 lawyers, and he was awarded the Singapore Managing Partner of the Year Award in 2018. Bazul was appointed as an ambassador to the Singapore International Mediation Centre panel in recognition of his leadership in alternative dispute resolution in Singapore and the Asia Pacific Region. That's quite the introduction, Bazul, welcome to the show. 

[00:02:59] Bazul Ashhab: Thank you, Lara. 

[00:03:00] Lara Quie: So I love to start the podcast with a little bit of background about you, where you grew up, and how you got into law in the first place. 

[00:03:09] Bazul Ashhab: Sure, background first. So, I am the eldest of three boys. Absolutely humble background. Grew up in a three room public housing at Tanjong Pagar Plaza, very close to the Maxwell Chambers.

[00:03:27] We called it "White House" then, so I used to cycle around White House. My parents were brilliant people, loving, very stable background very interested in their children's welfare, but not familiar with what it takes to succeed in school. So I got away with murder. Never understood the magnitude of the core relation between studying and passing exams. I had an alright memory and I tend to listen to what the teachers say and get through exams. And got through A-Levels went to National Service. Decided I would sign up because the hundred over dollars wasn't appealing. 

[00:04:17] I wanted to get a motorbike, so I signed up and got bored almost immediately, even before I passed out, and figured that I can actually do law as an external student and as luck will have it got posted to the High Court of Singapore as a personal guard police officer for GP Selvam, the High Court judge. Then to me, he's the brightest man I've ever come across. Even as of now. The only reason why I am what I am today. The man was kind enough to give me, to engage me, give me some time. His cases were super exciting and I saw the best of the best in the court.

[00:05:12] Shanmugam Law Minister, the late Alvin Yeo. So I sat there, watched them deliver their craft. I followed what they were saying. It was so inspiring. Probably the reason why I finished my law degree while doing the National Service and within that sign on period of five years, I didn't lose out time if I had went to university. Then, I went to do my bar exams. So that's, if you like a long background. 

[00:05:45] Lara Quie: Fascinating, and I didn't realize we had that connection with GP Selvam because I used to work at Duane Morris and Selvam with Mrs. Selvam married to GP Selvam. So I did see him quite often. Oh, that's amazing that he inspired you and that you saw these amazing people, quite by chance.

[00:06:04] If you weren't really such a focused student, did you have the grades that enabled you to go to university and study law? 

[00:06:13] Bazul Ashhab: No. So I could not have gone into the Singapore University to study law. No way in hell I probably would be able to do, I'm not even sure whether I could do arts and social science. So, I never understood studying.

[00:06:30] I never did study for my exams. I, just to give you an idea, I did A Levels literature. 8 books, I think. So before the exam, I finished about six, I think. So the other two books I read the preface, went into the exam. And just managed a B I think, just pass. So that's history. That's to answer your question. No I, no, not enough grades to go into law school in NUS. 

[00:06:59] Lara Quie: You did do a law degree and you actually are a barrister called to Lincoln's Inn, so tell us how you managed that. 

[00:07:08] Bazul Ashhab: Sure, so after I finished my law degree, which I took externally with University of London. It was just nice. I had served my fifth year in the police force. I need to serve a minimum of five years. So, I resigned. I went to London to do my bar exams for a year or so, and previously when I was studying for O’ Levels, A-Levels, primary school, I had no real interest in what I was studying.

[00:07:40] And when I was studying law, I saw a purpose. I understood I loved the contract law. I understand how law plays such an important part in one's life. So, then it made me want to study more. So I wasn't studying to pass an exam. I was studying to learn about law. So with that attitude I did alright. I got through my law degree. I went to do the bar exam. The bar exams were significant in terms of maturing me. I had some brains. At the bar exams, I got a second class, which was extremely rare for bar exams. Usually it's the third. And the bar exams are done by those from Oxford, Cambridge.

[00:08:30] It's the same exam you sit across them. Take the exam. When I got my result, I must say, I thought I failed because I went through the third class. I didn't get through. Then I thought, oh, I failed. Because people don't pass the first time as well. That's usual as well. So, then my friend saw the second class and he said, your name, you fool, your name is there.

[00:08:52] So, I then said, "ah, that's not a bad thing". So the bar exams were super useful for me to give that confidence back to me that I am able to if I put my heart and mind to it. I am able to deliver. So that was important. I enjoyed the one year in London significantly. So Lincoln's Inn was amazing. I took up the advocacy course, so I won the Cumberland Law Prize.

[00:09:28] I can't quite remember what led me to win that. On one occasion we were brought to a church and I bumped into the late Queen. I had a conversation, a brief one, so it was, it's very memorable. Very memorable. 

[00:09:45] Lara Quie: Sounds like a wonderful experience and a surprise to you that you had done so well in such an academic area.

[00:09:52] But then did you at that point return to Singapore and do some form of training to qualify? 

[00:09:59] Bazul Ashhab: Yes, I did the local at that time it was called the PLC - Post Law Course. Yes, I did the local training. I didn't spend any time in London. I came back almost immediately.

[00:10:12] Lara Quie: And so the kind of firm that you joined for your training, was it one that is in the areas that you now practice and is that how your career developed? 

[00:10:24] Bazul Ashhab: Yes. I joined Joseph Tan Jude Benny because Selvam was a shipping judge. So I, I'm totally inspired, although I loved the contract law and the Sale of Goods Act. Just wanted to do what he did. So I went into shipping. I joined Joseph Tan Jude Benny as a pupil. I worked under Jude Benny. I mean he is a great man a great boss. So I was one of those lucky chaps who was given a full latitude to do what. And my views were heard. I had my own secretary within the first year.

[00:10:56] I had my own room. I was running files with him. So I'm very grateful to Jude for giving me that opportunity. 

[00:11:06] Lara Quie: Well, I've heard his name before because Peter Doraisamy from PD Legal, talked about his time with Mr. Jude Benny as well. Sounds like it is the training ground for Singapore's shipping lawyers,

[00:11:21] Bazul Ashhab: That's right, that's right. It is. It is. 

[00:11:24] Lara Quie: You launched your own firm in 2002. What prompted you to start your own firm and what was life in the law like at that point in time? 

[00:11:33] Bazul Ashhab: What prompted me was I wanted to explore my own potential. I like the hunt. I like the search for meaning and purpose, so I wanted to assess where destiny will bring me. That prompted me to start my own firm and I did that fairly junior as well. I started my firm after four years. But Jude was amazing. He sent me over to Malaysia to help set up the Malaysian office, his Malaysian office.

[00:12:02] So I had the training ground on being an entrepreneurial lawyer. So not only I had to do the work, which came in after meeting the client, but also set up resources in order for the work to be carried out efficiently and promptly. So that laid the groundwork for me to have the confidence of setting up and the fun.

[00:12:29] It's actually an adventure. I'm still on that adventure, the quest. So that was the reason for setting up the firm.

[00:12:41] Lara Quie: And so since you started, which is now 20 years ago, what have been the greatest challenges of running your own firm? 

[00:12:49] Bazul Ashhab: Oh, the greatest challenges or challenge in running the law firm is getting a critical mass of excellent people to join you. So when you start a firm without any institutional support or background, you're not gonna get the first classes and lawyers who has the pedigree to run the really juicy files.

[00:13:12] Even from starting, I got the big instructions. I was very lucky. I must say I was very lucky. So, I always had the big instructions. But it's extremely difficult to put together a critical mass of good people. And I was determined to make sure that I achieved that or we achieved that as a firm.

[00:13:33] Because if we are not relentless in pursuing the best to come and join you. What would happen is that you would never achieve success. Any big venture would require collaboration and a law firm. Essentially. There are two elements. One is your people, the other is your client, and the focus must be getting your people right.

[00:13:56] The moment you get your people right, the client will be taken care of so that was the biggest challenge. And I think once I achieved success on that front, the growth is a natural consequence of that. And I started growing and I must say, I have the best team I could possibly wish for. They're amazing people. Those who are working with me. My partners are truly amazing people. 

[00:14:26] Lara Quie: Wonderful, I'm sure that they will all listen to this podcast and be very pleased to hear that. So growing your firm as you did from only four years, PQE, which is, relatively junior, I would say. I don't think I've heard of many people who started their own firm at such a junior level.

[00:14:44] However, you must have been very good at business development. You'd said that you were very lucky you got these fantastic juicy cases, but tell me a bit about business development. What it means for you and what you do to get new clients and new work from them. 

[00:15:01] Bazul Ashhab: Business development. The core element of that is honesty, although it may sound disconnected, but it is real honesty because as a lawyer a client is assessing you on whether or not he can trust the business to you.

[00:15:14] So honesty is super critical. I'll tell you one I was involved in, so without naming names, a CEO of a bank introduced me to a client. We spoke, he liked me, he gave me a retainer, and he gave me instruction, which I thought what he is endeavouring to do would effectively destroy him.

[00:15:36] I was very small and probably two lawyers at that time, me and my partner, I said to him, it's nice. Thank you so much, but I need to refuse the instructions. Because for these reasons, I'm not prepared to do this. I think you need to find someone else.

[00:15:49] I'm sure you would find someone else, but I am not prepared to do this. I gave his deposit back and walked away and six months down the road he called me up and gave me a massive case on which I have built quite significant this was years ago. So, to me, honesty is key. As long as you are honest, your business will be taken care of.

[00:16:11] The next thing is branding and all that, but as a young lawyer, you don't necessarily have to crack your head. What you need to do is just be honest. 

[00:16:19] Lara Quie: But in terms of having the opportunity to be honest to potential clients, did you do a lot of going out and about and meeting people for coffee and lunch?

[00:16:29] Did you leverage your network in any way? Did you, for example, use your time during National Service at the police force in any way to grow your network and to be able to reach out to people who would be potential clients for your firm? 

[00:16:45] Bazul Ashhab: No, actually it's quite strange because networking, I only started doing say 10, 12 years in to practice.

[00:16:54] So when I first started, I wasn't networking very much. I was doing the work which came my way. And the clients like my work gave me more work. Oh, my largest clients were two of the biggest insurers in Malaysia. So they effectively, I was a captive lawyer for them, so any significant work came to me. I assisted them to build their own in-house capability.

[00:17:20] So they liked my work. They liked the value I was giving. So it is word of mouth. They introduced other clients to me. It is the clients who gave more clients. On some occasions the opponents then came to me as well. So networking is, it's very important, especially in the modern world, it is super important.

[00:17:43] But when I first started, I wasn't great with networking, looking at my diary and see who I can connect with. That's not how I went by. 

[00:17:53] Lara Quie: Sounds like you were incredibly fortunate and that yes, times are a little different now. But last year, in August, 2021, your firm made the headlines for the unprecedented move of making Abdul Mallik, your firm's general manager and head of business development, and most notably, a non-lawyer equity partner. What prompted this move, and what was the legal industry's response? 

[00:18:18] Bazul Ashhab: So what prompted the move is, I have always felt that lawyers and non-lawyers play an important role in law firms. I call them business professionals. They're not support, even language. I think language is super important to call someone support demotes their true contribution.

[00:18:40] I see them as partners, equal partners who have a stake, who have a seat on the table. If you want to collaborate, if you wanna grow your practice, you must be prepared to give others a stake, a seat on the table so that their voices, their views will be taken seriously. So that was what prompted having non-lawyers, and it's not going to stop.

[00:19:07] I will continue to bring others into the equityship. And next year there will be further announcements to be made as well. As I said, for the place to really grow, you must collaborate. You cannot have your equity as a closed room. You must allow people to come in and share in the growth.

[00:19:30] So I have taken the view that, look some of our senior partners coming together has grown the practice to some size. The firm was able to grow even bigger because of the contribution of others. As the firm is growing, there would be others' voices need to be heard and seated in the ownership table.

[00:19:50] Lara Quie: That's very forward thinking. Many firms do call business development and other areas, finance, et cetera "support". And it is good to hear that you actually prefer the concept of business partner because modern law firms absolutely are a collaboration between the lawyers and the people who run the practice and the firm as a whole. And certainly the move towards having externally trained CEOs in particular, and business people who bring in insights, who are able to really the business of law and how they can make it much more efficient.

[00:20:29] But also because lawyers together tend to have rather similar outlook and personality, and certainly with regard to risk, obviously being more risk averse and needing the evidence and being incredibly independent so it can be quite hard to get decisions made. And so having very fresh ideas must bring a lot to the table.

[00:20:51] But tell me a little bit about the impact of Covid on your firm and any of the actual positive changes that you've seen emerge. 

[00:21:00] Bazul Ashhab: COVID has been terrible for us, for the humankind, don't me wrong when I say there are positives. So law firms have generally done alright during Covid because you are in the pursuit of applying your intellect to provide the service which you do.

[00:21:17] So you don't necessarily need a physical presence in order to carry out your work. What you need is technology. Embracing technology. So during Covid, the revenue grew. So we were able to retain higher solid hires during Covid. So I had partners from Clifford Chance joining me. I was able to grow the practice, grow the revenue because of embracing technology.

[00:21:45] And adopting the idea that people can contribute irrespective where they are. You don't need to drag all of them into an office space. In order to be productive. You need to allow people to provide value in their own space and time. So that is what Covid taught us, and I am determined to make sure that we don't go back to the old ways of practicing law. I am absolutely determined.

[00:22:19] Lara Quie: Well, I'm sure your lawyers will be very pleased to hear that because I know that certainly law is a very traditional profession and generally there has been the lawyers being forced back into the office and certainly that is difficult for people who have been used to remote work environment for so many years now.

[00:22:39] So, thinking about young lawyers and the things that you've learned throughout your career, what kind of tips have you got for them? 

[00:22:47] Bazul Ashhab: Lawyering would require various aspects. Would require advocacy. Would require playing the second chair, making sure the first chair is given all the support he needs playing the solicitor role, if you like. Third, client management. Fourth, resource management, meaning managing the resource. Below them, including the file managers.

[00:23:14] I don't call them secretaries as well. I call them file managers. Finance management. So there are various aspects of lawyering. So not all of us are driven to achieve excellence in all five aspects. So have an honest conversation with your mentors. Tell them what you truly like, and then focus on the things you truly like.

[00:23:40] At the same time, given opportunities to other areas, if you wanna try out. What you need to understand as a young lawyer is it is the character which actually dictate what your lawyering skills are. Unfortunately, as a lawyer, you cannot rely on a blueprint or template to say that I'm gonna rely on this and build a house.

[00:24:02] It doesn't work that way. Each case which comes to you is different. Each client who comes to you is different. Your character shines through. So in your opinion, one will be able to tell whether you are honest in the sense that you are. You have no problems in telling a client that he has a bad case. Or you have no problems in telling a client you have a good case and these are the setbacks which you would face, but we will help you deal with that because you have done the thorough research not lead your client to a garden path.

[00:24:39] So your character plays an important role. And that's something which I tell my lawyers who join me. I'll say to them that, look, I hope not to guide you on legal principles. I hope that you know more law than I do, given that you just came out of university. But what I can really guide you on is how to build your resilience.

[00:25:02] The character you need, the listening skills. Because you need to be able to listen to what is said to you as opposed to having thoughts, which are running in your head. Preconceived notions because you know certain principles of law. So these are skill sets, which I impart to the junior lawyers who come in. I take my obligation to train very seriously because if you discharge that properly, you will be able to build the foundation for good lawyering. I have some of my lawyers who joined me as pupils, who they're still around with me, who are now made partners. Prakaash is one example. He joined me as a pupil, great lawyer superior lawyer to me. Amazing man.

[00:25:45] It is that sort of relationship which you cultivate character. So that's what I say to them, and that's what young lawyers need to understand. 

[00:25:54] Lara Quie: So it sounds like honesty is your number one guiding principle. How do you test for that when you are interviewing and taking on these young lawyers? 

[00:26:06] Bazul Ashhab: You can't test that through an interview. It's not possible. In order to put together an interview which will suss out whether someone is honest that the interview process itself will be super costly. You need to go to a psychologist and say, can I put together a list of questions because this is the type of lawyers I want to attract.

[00:26:29] Can you help me come up with these questions? And the process itself will be an involved process. So the answer, I can't afford it. So the answer is no. You can't get that through an interview process. What you can do though, After they join you during the pupillage or training you work with them. You allow them to speak, you give them voice. It is through that process you will be able to suss out what they are.

[00:27:01] Lara Quie: Good point. They cannot hide forever. So you'll see character over time. And so I'm wondering about, obviously, being a managing partner of a big firm, how do you maintain some element of we call work life balance, but let's call it work life harmony?

[00:27:21] Bazul Ashhab: I have a son who's 14 years old. To me, what is most important primary driver is that I want to be the best father to my son. Which means that there's no conflict. So I try and ask myself, whatever I am doing, does that conflict with that primary objective? And the answer is always a no. And if that is the answer is yes, I'll stop doing it.

[00:27:51] So just to give you with some specificity. So now with the modern technology, I can work anywhere, anytime. So once he's gone to bed, I am able to do the work, so my time with him is not taken up and lawyering is not an eight to five job. I could, when he was younger, I was having conferences when I was at the zoo with him, it never stopped me from having a decent conversation when he was asleep in his pram.

[00:28:25] So it is, that's precisely how I put it, work life, harmony. And again, I say it's technology. Technology is the key to harmonize. Don't be a slave to a pathway of working. Figure out how best can you reach happiness? No. I tell my younger lawyers this. I say, “Hey, why don't you go to take a three months break if you need to take a three months break?”

[00:28:56] One of them wants to go to Himalayas. I said, "Fantastic. Go! Not just a month, take three months if you need to”, but you then can choose and say, hang on. I'll get bored anyway there's wifi wherever I go these days. So instead of running multiple files, gimme one file and remunerate me based on that, my ability to run that file for you, irrespective where I am.

[00:29:24] I welcome it. That's amazing. So technology allows you to live your life fully. Embrace it. That's how I harmonize my work and life.

[00:29:36] Lara Quie: That sounds like such a modern approach, and I'm sure you're going to get a whole load of your junior lawyers coming to you and saying they're off to the Himalayas. But I guess one thing that we need to think about is the retention of the young lawyers, and it sounds like you've got a great modern approach, but what are the things that young lawyers need to think about in order to endure and remain in this profession, successfully like you have done? Obviously, things have changed a great deal since you founded Oon & Bazul 20 years ago. So what would a young person, your pupils, trainees entering your firm right now, what skills are they going to need for the future? 

[00:30:21] Bazul Ashhab: I think the lock step model is very inefficient. Although the whole idea of hierarchy is meant for efficiency but given now with technology and the way information is shared so freely, the younger lawyers ought to be given, let's say a voice and that's super important.

[00:30:41] So they need to appreciate that what they lack is experience. So they need be patient. See they take quite a bit of break bands from senior people. I mean, we often hear this we often hear that the younger lawyers are soft. They've not gone through rite a passage as we have.

[00:31:00] The thing about younger lawyers are they have purpose because they have choices. Despite the choices, they chose to practice law. So what they need to appreciate is whatever they are doing, there is a purpose behind it. A law firm, which can give purpose to what the younger lawyers are doing will be able to improve the retention rate.

[00:31:30] And in order to do that, you need to have conversations. You need to speak to them Often. It's very tough given the demands over your time. Again, technology, even if you can't meet in person, do the Zoom, speak to them. So that's what I will say to younger lawyers and law firms as well. Have a conversation.

[00:31:52] Lara Quie: Definitely, it's about communication and understanding and that connection, and it sounds like you are a great mentor and that you listen in particular, to your fellow lawyers in your firm and that you care genuinely about them having purpose. And it's a great point you mentioned about never have they had more choice to do something else, but the fact that they are choosing law, which is a really difficult profession if you consider that they could be a professional YouTuber or that they could be a pop star or a footballer or all sorts of different things. Taking the legal path is a hard one it's not to be taken lightly and I think that you've been able to attract a great team of people to work with who you know equally enjoy working with you as they do learning and gaining the experience that they can at your firm.

[00:32:48] So what is the best way for people to reach out to you if they want to speak to you after hearing this episode? 

[00:32:56] Bazul Ashhab: Sure. My mobile phone. I have so many emails coming my way. I'm sure people can find my email address, but the best way to reach me is through my mobile phone. Send me a WhatsApp. I'll try and respond, but that's also now becoming difficult.

[00:33:16] Given now the modern way to reach out is a What's App. So reach me on my mobile phone. That's what I will say, and those who want to know my mobile number is 9757 1479. 

[00:33:30] Lara Quie: Perfect. I'm sure you're going to be inundated by WhatsApp . So thank you so much, Bazul for being on the show today. 

[00:33:40] Bazul Ashhab: Absolute pleasure, Lara.

[00:33:41] Lara Quie: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Legal Genie Podcast. Please leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts. It helps other people in the legal industry find the show. And don't forget to share this with anyone you think would benefit from listening to it as well. Until next time, have a magical week ahead.