Positioning Yourself for Success in International Arbitration with Claudia Salomon, President of the ICC - Episode 36

In Episode 33 of the Legal Genie Podcast, your host, Lara Quie of Lara Q Associates is in conversation with Claudia Salomon, President of the International Chamber of Commerce (ICC), International Court of Arbitration. She is the first woman President in its almost 100-year history.

Claudia is also an independent arbitrator specializing in international investor state and complex commercial disputes. She's widely recognized as one of the leading arbitration practitioners of her generation. She's known for her sound judgment, effective case management, and ability to quickly reach the crux of an issue.

She was formerly partner and global co-chair of Latham & Watkins International Arbitration Practice, where she was engaged in some of the most complex, high value and significant disputes. She has acted as arbitrator and counsel in arbitrations around the globe under all of the major arbitral rules governed by common law and civil law.

Claudia is a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators. She's a sought after speaker and writer on international arbitration and is the co-editor of Choice of Venue in International Arbitration published by Oxford University Press. She's a member of the New York Bar and a solicitor in England and Wales.

In this episode, Claudia shares her career story and journey to becoming ICC President. She also shares her advice for young lawyers on positioning yourself to attract opportunities and mentors. 

I hope that you enjoy this episode.

You can connect with Claudia Salomon on LinkedIn here

Find the ICC Website here

Find the Young Arbitrator and ADR Forum (YAAF)here

And find her on her personal website here

Also:

·         If you liked this episode, please rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

·         Look out for the next episode coming soon.

You can connect with Lara Quie:

·         On LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie

·         Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

·          Or Email at Lara@LaraQAssociates.com

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

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Transcript

The Legal Genie Podcast Episode 36 with Claudia Salomon, President of the ICC

[00:00:00] Hello. And welcome to the legal genie podcast hosted by me, Lara Quie. This podcast is anyone looking for some career inspiration and mentoring in the legal industry.

I interview movers and shakers with interesting stories to tell about the highs and lows of their careers. 

They share loads of useful advice that I hope will help you to move forward in your career. 

Please follow and rate and even better, leave a review on whichever platform that you're listening to this on now. 

[00:00:58] Right, on with the show.... Hello and welcome to the Legal Genie Podcast with me your host, Lara Quie. It's very exciting for me today because I am here with Claudia Salomon. Claudia is President of the International Chamber of Commerce (ICC), International Court of Arbitration. The first woman President in its almost 100-year history.

[00:01:36] Lara Quie: Claudia is also an independent arbitrator specializing in international investor state and complex commercial disputes. She's widely recognized as one of the leading arbitration practitioners of her generation. She's known for her sound judgment, effective case management, and ability to quickly reach the crux of an issue.

[00:01:57] Claudia was formerly partner and global co-chair of Latham & Watkins International Arbitration Practice, where she was engaged in some of the most complex, high value and significant disputes. She has acted as arbitrator and counsel in arbitrations around the globe under all of the major arbitral rules governed by common law and civil law.

[00:02:19] Claudia is a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators. She's a sought after speaker and writer on international arbitration and is the co-editor of Choice of Venue in International Arbitration published by Oxford University Press. She's a member of the New York Bar and a solicitor in England and Wales.

[00:02:37] She graduated from Harvard Law School and also Somerville College, Oxford University. Claudia, after that very lengthy introduction, welcome to the show. 

[00:02:47] Claudia Salomon: Lara, thank you so much. I'm really thrilled to be on the show. 

[00:02:52] Lara Quie: So it is great to start with a little bit of background about you. So can you tell me about your childhood and where you grew up.

[00:02:59] Claudia Salomon: Sure. I actually grew up in Richmond, Virginia, which is about a hundred miles south of Washington, DC. My family moved there from Connecticut. My parents were from New York in 1970. So, it was a very controversial time in the American South when schools were being desegregated. And my family was the only Jewish family in the schools.

[00:03:23] Lara Quie: That sounds like a very interesting experience. So tell me a bit about what you were like at school and then what inspired you to study, because I know that actually law wasn't your first degree, so tell me a little bit about that journey. 

[00:03:36] Claudia Salomon: Sure. I would say my childhood was not the same as being an immigrant to a new country, but it definitely gave me a perspective of being an outsider and the importance for people to have a sense of belonging.

[00:03:52] I studied politics and economics in college and in the American legal system, we do not specialize or major in law when we go to university. And then, you know, really could study anything. You can study art, you could study music, politics, economics, business in your first degree and then decide to go to law school.

[00:04:16] But I was definitely one of those people. Maybe it was because of a sense of justice, a sense of protection for people. Or maybe it was just because I was always arguing that I was really one of those kids who always knew I was going to be a lawyer. 

[00:04:33] Lara Quie: Is that what people said to you? You should be a lawyer, Claudia. You're always arguing. 

[00:04:38] Claudia Salomon: It must have been. 

[00:04:39] Lara Quie: And so was there anyone around you in your family or anyone you knew being a lawyer who inspired you? 

[00:04:46] Claudia Salomon: I didn't really have lawyers in my family. My father had taught political science and, you know, had taught American constitutional law from a political science perspective, not, you know, in a law school.

[00:05:01] And so there's certainly was a lot of discussion about legal issues. And I was really drawn to politics or governance. When I was younger, and actually, you know, even in high school was working at the Virginia legislature, I was very interested in election law, elections, voting, political participation when I was younger.

[00:05:30] Lara Quie: That's quite interesting, isn't it, when you think of where you are now? And so, then you did go to Harvard Law School. What was your time like when you were there? 

[00:05:40] Claudia Salomon: So, it was very controversial time at the law school itself. There was a lot of philosophical or legal debate between the critical legal thinking on one end of the spectrum and the law and economics perspective on the other end of the spectrum. There were protests with regard to the lack of diversity in the faculty as well. And then just on a very personal level my mother passed away the week before I went to law school.

[00:06:11] And so for me, going to law school was kind of this sense that I needed to continue to do what I had set out to do what in essence my mother would, you know, want me to be doing. But I definitely know that I was thinking about the perspective of having gone through such a difficult, actual experience, I would say that, while there were certain you know, joyful and light experiences, of course that everybody has in school, I was just dealing with something very, very difficult. But that being said, I mean Harvard Law School was such an absolute transformational experience for me. I had amazing professors and intellectual experience.

[00:07:00] I really felt like it really was an environment in which if you wanted to reach out to a resource and potentially have somebody as a speaker or figure out if somebody might be able to be part of an interesting conversation, intellectually you had that ability to reach out to them. And that's, you know, something I've really taken with me too. 

[00:07:25] Lara Quie: Yeah. So that does sound like it must have been quite a hard time for you, but you threw yourself into your studies and into life at Harvard and discovered how amazing it could be, you know, to have all these conversations and debates really looking at the law and how it all works. So after law school, tell me what happened afterwards. 

[00:07:45] Claudia Salomon: So, as I mentioned, I was really interested in voting, elections, political participation. You know, I didn't study international law in law school, and so I actually went back to Virginia kind of for family reasons. And even though I had, you know, been a summer associate at Debevoise in New York, so a very circuitous route to get to New York, whereas often people say, after law school, you know, in the United States, if you don't go to New York, you'll never make it. Which, you know, hopefully I'm a case study that that's not the case. But I went to Virginia and you know, became a litigation associate, but my focus was really on local government. And some voting and election cases.

[00:08:33] And so in some ways it all sounds very distinct from my work now, but I actually see it as an interesting continuum where I kind of feel like I went from representing cities and towns to having still so much of my practice when I was counsel to then have cases involving countries, you know, sovereigns.

[00:08:57] But, so it's still the intersection of business and government issues and then kind of that connection with voting issues. My last couple of years in private practice I did actually lead the largest pro bono case at my firm, which was a Voting Rights Act case, which we were successful in.

[00:09:25] And so kind of had this opportunity to link back to voting and political participation issues. 

[00:09:32] Lara Quie: Yes, I did notice your pro bono case, and I thought that was really, really interesting and it is wonderful how you've, made sense of all that for me now. So I can see how that all ties together.

[00:09:43] But once you had started practice as an associate. How did you actually get into the practice of international arbitration? 

[00:09:51] Claudia Salomon: Yes. So, you know, I mentioned I was working in Richmond, Virginia, and my husband went to graduate school in Phoenix, Arizona.

[00:10:00] And I would say never in my wildest dreams did I imagine living or working in Arizona, but life takes interesting turns and we were living long distance. Actually got married and then stayed living in a long distance relationship. And this is all before much of the technology that have now for communication.

[00:10:24] I think one of the biggest stresses at that time was just how expensive our phone bills were, which again, is not something that people are really having to address now. But you know, at the end of the day, it just wasn't fun to be in that kind of distance and so, I was a fourth year associate and the economy was booming at that time.

[00:10:46] And so I had opportunities in various law firms in Arizona, and the head of litigation with whom I interviewed at one of the firms, basically said international arbitration was the wave of the future. So this is, you know, 1998. And I just had a realization that I didn't need to try to do everything I was doing in Virginia in an absolutely new environment.

[00:11:18] And those words really made sense to me. As there was going to be more cross-border trade, there would likely be more cross-border disputes. And so I joined that firm. It was Squire Sanders at the time. And continued to do commercial litigation. I actually continued to do some local government work and had a major case for the city of Phoenix, but I began to do some international arbitration work and actually worked on a case involving Indonesian hotels and some other international arbitration matters.

[00:11:57] Helped draft, you know, materials to promote the arbitration practice when it was just being created from whole cloth. Helped the partner write various speeches or other sorts of things as he was really talking about international arbitration. And that was the entree. 

[00:12:17] Lara Quie: Well, it shows you how some of these things really are a stroke of luck. 

[00:12:21] Claudia Salomon: Yes, it's a stroke of luck for me, but it's also, you know, since I know this is a podcast in which people are thinking about their careers and how to position themselves, is that I was open to new opportunities. And I think that's one of my core messages to young practitioners, young people, which is you might have plan A but life takes interesting turns or sometimes difficult turns and so you have to figure out, well, maybe plan A isn't going to work out, or maybe this new turn opens up something that you've never even thought about and you want to position yourself to be able to be open to that. So, you know, what I always say is you have to position yourself to be lucky.

[00:13:11] That there is an element of luck, but you have to be the person who is going to be available or open to receive that. 

[00:13:23] Lara Quie: That's a very important point. Because if you had not been open, you could have brushed that off and said, "oh, is it? Yes. But I don't see that. I think I'm just going to stick to what I know here."

[00:13:34] But actually you said, "oh, that's interesting. That does sound something like I could do and I'll follow that path and see what happens." So yes, a very open growth mindset, open to opportunities. That's really good that you are an example of that. And so, as that progressed though, I think you then went abroad at some stage. Can you tell me a little bit about that overseas experience? 

[00:14:00] Claudia Salomon: Yes, absolutely. And I think that's a continuum of my thinking about being open and also positioning yourself for opportunities. I went to Prague, in the Czech Republic in October 2001. So now more than 20 years ago. And again, that wasn't, let's say, in a plan.

[00:14:19] But the same head of litigation came to see me. It's just a few weeks after September 11th in the United States, and basically just asked me, you know, how is my caseload, how am I doing, and would I like to go to Prague? And basically said there's a meeting the firm has been hired to represent the Czech Republic in an investment treaty case and I had never even heard of an investment treaty. And on five days’ notice, I went to Prague originally for a month and stayed for three years and in that context of thinking about positioning yourself to be lucky. Yes. I was an associate willing to do that even though my husband and I had just bought a car.

[00:15:07] We had just bought an SUV. We were just putting down our roots and yet it also seemed like this incredible opportunity. And also, you know, I was mid-level senior associate at the time, somebody who the firm had determined that there was going to need to be somebody who could really, you know, in essence, run a large case on the ground.

[00:15:34] While there was also a partner who would come in periodically working with the team and I was.... My husband would describe me as like a fire jumper. Somebody who, you know, in the midst of a crisis would be lowered down and would turn off the valve or something to stop the crisis, in other words, like somebody who was willing to do whatever it took to try to solve a problem.

[00:15:59] And so I think that kind of work approach led me to be the type of person that the firm at that point thought could handle such a potentially difficult, but also very interesting challenge. 

[00:16:15] Lara Quie: That's quite amazing. I mean, if you think of getting five days’ notice and then end up living abroad for three years. There's not many people that would be as open and willing, as you say, especially newly married, just settling down and the fact that your husband also was prepared to let you go. I do think that does show something, quite special about your character actually, Claudia.

[00:16:39] I mean, there's being open, but then there is, as you said, being that person they can lower down into the fire to rescue the day. That must have been a fascinating time, but it seems that that opportunity really did give you time to show your worth and be that person on the ground.

[00:16:57] As you said that the partner in the States would sort of, come over from time to time, but you were effectively that person running the case and so you probably did get to do things that maybe stretched you quite considerably. Did you find that that was a great time of learning? 

[00:17:14] Claudia Salomon: Absolutely. I mean, it was an incredible time. And just to put in context after a couple of months, then my husband was able to come to Prague as well, and we really kind of had such a wonderful and amazing experience there. And, and to put it in context, a few things. You know, one was, as I was going, my husband bought me a, first type of digital camera. And may seem crazy, but it was one megapixel. And so there was this new technology that you could take a picture, plug it into your computer and email a photograph. And now of course our phones have many, many times the size and clarity of photographs.

[00:17:57] It was also a time when not only the Czech Republic but 10 other countries in central Eastern Europe, were going through the process of a session to the to the European Union. So there was a big transformation there and it meant that I had this opportunity to not only work on this one major investment treaty case, but actually two for the Czech Republic.

[00:18:22] And then I worked on commercial arbitration cases all over Europe. And it was actually, you know, the transformation point for my career. And since that point then I was working full-time in the world of international arbitration.

[00:18:38] Lara Quie: It certainly was a good launch into that world. But after Prague, you actually did go back to New York. Tell me a little bit about your time in the really big firms that you were with and your development from associate into the partnership. 

[00:18:53] Claudia Salomon: Certainly, I think for anyone working overseas, there is definitely the calculation or determination about whether one is going to continue to be an expat for the rest of their career and in that particular location, or if it's.

[00:19:12] You know, time and at a critical time in one's career to return. At that point, the Czech Republic was not necessarily where I was going to have my future career. It wasn't, you know, viewed as a primary hub for international arbitration, although it's exciting to see how much has transformed in that city.

[00:19:37] And so I was also beginning to be viewed as a central European specialist rather than a global international arbitration specialist. And so, I really viewed that time as essential to go to New York and I was returning back to the United States, but not specifically returning to New York as it were.

[00:19:59] But really considered that to be important at that point. Just in context, again, DLA Piper was just at that moment, the beginning of 2005, going through its global merger where three major law firms came together to become what is now DLA Piper. It was then I think, the largest global law firm.

[00:20:22] Now, others have either exceeded or in that same structural or stratosphere in terms of size. And so it was an incredible opportunity for me. It didn't necessarily make sense at the point of my career to join or come in to established arbitration practices, which, you know, typically have pyramid where there is then the funnel of certain people moving into partnership.

[00:20:50] And for me, I was going to come in as a lateral at that stage. And so this opportunity of joining a law firm that was focused on building international practices, you know, for a newly global law firm, it needed to have practices that had the word international in them. And so it was this opportunity for me coming in, of course, without a book of business at that point, but with experience in Europe, experience with civil law cases with investment treaty experience to come in.

[00:21:27] And even though I joined as counsel without a book of business, I was really given this opportunity to with partners in London and others around the globe to build the international arbitration practice with a view that I would be considered for partner two years later, which I was and made partner then.

[00:21:48] And so it was really this opportunity to build an arbitration practice on the ground while there were actually all these shoots and elements of experience around the firm that I needed to capture in order to build up a practice. 

[00:22:04] Lara Quie: Right. That sounds like a great experience in terms of what you brought to the table. And then, well, I can imagine though, you worked very, very hard. 

[00:22:15] Claudia Salomon: I definitely worked hard. You know, there's long hours. I think the interesting issue is working also strategically thinking about what is the strength of a firm like DLA that would enable us to win and get work. 

[00:22:32] Where if we were to try to match up with a law firm that has a very long credential statement of experience, we wouldn't win the work on that criteria. So we needed to figure out other ways to position ourselves as a preferred law firm. And that was really exciting to utilize the strengths of that firm.

[00:22:56] And then, you know, eight years later when I joined Latham and Watkins, that firm is a different firm. And so as I became the global co-chair of that arbitration practice and we needed to focus on building that international arbitration practice, we had to do it differently because the firm is different.

[00:23:13] And so again, I think that's an important kind of, lesson, or part of my experience is really knowing that there's not one way in which one builds a practice. There's not one way in which one builds a career. 

[00:23:30] Lara Quie: And you certainly have a long history with the ICC. So tell me about how you started to get in there right in the beginning.

[00:23:38] Claudia Salomon: Certainly. I always had ICC cases, and of course, ICC has stood as the leading arbitral institution globally for its history. And so I actually had the opportunity to be the Chair of the Young Arbitrator Forum when it was actually only in the United States before it had gone global. 

[00:24:02] And that was a great opportunity to get to know my peers get additional speaking opportunities. Be creative about the ways in which that group could grow. And so that was really my first kind of connection beyond as counsel in I CCC cases. 

[00:24:21] And then kind of went from there. I served as a member of the first task force on reducing time and costs in international arbitration. And again, just to put that in context. We were talking about how to reduce time and costs and making recommendations on utilizing technology in arbitration, and yet the only way members of that task force could participate was to go physically to Paris for meetings.

[00:24:52] We were not utilizing even telephone conference or video conferencing for participation. Later, I then served on the Commission on Arbitration, and then subsequently, was a Co-chair of the Task Force on financial institutions and international arbitration, and that was actually my initiative. I had joined Latham and Watkins.

[00:25:23] The strength of that firm was really the financial institutions. I saw this as a potential growth area and had made this proposal and then we really had an incredible task force that looked at these issues. 

[00:25:39] Lara Quie: Well, it sounds like you've got quite a journey within the ICC moving on up from the Young Arbitrators Committee and then moving on up and so at what point did you begin to think, wow, you know, I could actually see myself in a leadership position and how you got yourself to Vice President. Tell me about that. 

[00:25:59] Claudia Salomon: So, I was appointed as the US Court member in 2015. And so I served in that role for three years and then was appointed as one of the Vice Presidents of the Court. So I was serving, you know, on the Court for six years when there was the announcement that Alexi would not seek another term, which, you know, made sense because he had introduced term limits to the Court that people would serve no more than two full terms that even though there wasn't a formal requirement for the President, that it would make sense that he also wouldn't have a longer term.

[00:26:46] And it was a fully transparent process where the selection committee members were identified. The process and criteria upon which someone would be selected was published with timelines, that was something that Alexi introduced and I was at a point where I, there was no push factor as it were. I could have continued at Latham and Watkins and I was interested in getting more arbitrator work, but not necessarily ready to do that full-time. 

[00:27:23] But I was very interested in the possibility of an executive role. I mean, I was leading a practice group globally. Of course, I would develop the strategy of every new case, which was exciting, focused on client relationships, but I was very interested in the idea of the opportunity to shape an institution from a real strategic standpoint.

[00:27:52] And so I applied for this position, and I know that there were incredible candidates from around the world and there was strong interest in the position as well. So, you know, I really had to make a decision to put myself in place to be considered. 

[00:28:11] Lara Quie: Well, you certainly had a very good long track record of commitment to the ICC in all of these various different forms.

[00:28:19] So you must have had some great insights, good connections and a vision for its future as well. And then such a diverse experience of international arbitration in all its different forms as well. So I can imagine that you really were the perfect candidate, so it wasn't really a surprise when you got the role.

[00:28:37] But you know, obviously as a woman it is significant. You know, we love the fact that you are the first woman President of the ICC and next year will be its hundredth year. So how exciting is that? Do you feel actually any sort of responsibility as the first woman? Do you feel a little bit, you know, more special about the fact that although you are President, it is special to be the very first woman as well?

[00:29:03] Claudia Salomon: Well, I definitely take the words from Kamala Harris to heart that I may be the first, but I do not want to be the last. So hopefully it's trailblazing and we're at a point where in the not too distant future, having another woman and diverse candidates and diverse people in leadership roles is not noteworthy.

[00:29:25] That's obviously the objective. It's also important for me to make sure that we are focused on diversity, broadly defined that we've made some good strides in increasing diversity in terms of the number of women who are getting appointed as arbitrators. We have a long way to go still there. But we've made good strides in good time there.

[00:29:55] But it's important to make sure that we're thinking about diversity broadly defined. Not just gender, but obviously race and ethnicity. Other attributes. And an element that's been important to me has been a focus on disability inclusion in international arbitration. I would say also, kind of as the first woman in this role, I've really had to think about how to not just try to emulate my predecessors or anyone. 

[00:30:27] I've had incredible support from Alexi and from so many people in the arbitration world. And what I've just had to do, and maybe it's not just as the first woman, it's everyone. You have to have your own voice. You have to have your own style because you can only be yourself in this position.

[00:30:47] And so that was something I really had to kind of walk through to. To a comfort place. I really believe people want authentic leaders. And so it's very important to actually be yourself. And in fact, I don't believe you can lead in any other way.

[00:31:07] Lara Quie: That's a really important point. And I think through the pandemic, we really noticed that people wanted that authenticity.

[00:31:14] They also wanted to see leaders being vulnerable and saying, you know what, actually we don't have all of the answers, but this is how I feel, and I can empathize with you as well. So empathy came through as one of the qualities that leaders need to show as well. And so thinking about your leadership in this role and leading us into the next one ,100 years what advice have you got for young arbitrators who are just starting out in their career now? How can they futureproof their career? 

[00:31:45] Claudia Salomon: So, we are obviously in a tumultuous time period. We are not just in crisis, but we're, you know, crisis upon crisis and maybe I'll link back to kind of our earlier discussion. I think it's really important for young people to not think that there's only one path to get from point A to point B.

[00:32:09] I think it's always important to be thinking about where you might want to be heading and keep your eye on that, but always keep your eyes open for other opportunities. I think that's really important. The second thing I would say is that what I, or at least I would say, what I tried to do is every year try to make sure I had some goals and accomplished those specific things, but not thinking that I could do many things.

[00:32:43] And so, as we just talked about the different steps I took within the ICC, you know, I concentrated in one arbitral institution, and again, I know people are trying to hedge their bets and make sure they're visible in so many different ways. And of course, one needs to do that. But I do think that if you're looking for leadership opportunities, the ways in which you do that is really by devoting yourself to particular institutions and also really being willing to step up when there is a need because those opportunities can reveal themselves.

[00:33:25] I also think that, you know, for younger practitioners, nothing beats the hard work and the good work that you do. And then, but you can't always have your head down with regard to your work. So to be thinking about, well, how are you going to help build the profile of the firm, of the practice group as a whole and yourself through, whether that's publications or good strategic speaking opportunities. 

[00:33:54] I think when people are all over the place, it diffuses their own brand and the strength of their what they're striving to achieve.

[00:34:03] Lara Quie: I think that's very true. A bit of focus as you say. And once you've found your niche and a good place to be, to concentrate on that and make a difference and be willing to step up when those opportunities arise.

[00:34:18] But be open to those, look out for those, and then jump in when you see them. It is very easy to be attracted by all the bright lights, so many opportunities that are currently for young people. But not to just try and do everything, but to be discerning, find one or two things, concentrate on those, do them well. So any last words of advice before we round off? Anything else you'd like to tell our listeners? 

[00:34:46] Claudia Salomon: I would say two things. The first is when you are doing your work, my message is be curious or be a sponge, but also think about how is the work that you're doing part of the broader context?

[00:35:01] In other words, when you're being asked to research something, how does that fit into the broader strategy? And you can ask, you know, your supervisor or the partner or the client in that context as you begin to have client relationships, because it helps you understand, well, if someone says, what are our options?

[00:35:23] You need to understand, well, what is the client striving to achieve? So, if the client is striving to get something done as quickly as possible, you don't want to be listing out all of the ways in which a case could drag on. And so that's just the most basic thing, but it's also, you know, is this to just get a quick and dirty answer?

[00:35:43] Or is there a need for really in depth analysis and that helps you, one, get the work done in a way that meets the client's expectations or the partner's expectations, but also helps you understand how this all fits in, and then it helps you work, do the work that you need. And that's really what I'm focused on now in this role.

[00:36:04] And what we talk about in terms of client mindset at the ICC is really thinking about the parties, our clients, for purposes of this mindset. What their strategic objectives are actually when they face a dispute. And then the last piece I would focus on because I know there's a real focus here on mentoring is....

[00:36:27] You know, one needs to, one's looking for mentors, but you can find them in a lot of different ways. But also you need to be a person that somebody wants to invest in. And so you can't just approach somebody and say, "will you be my mentor?" You know, what is it that is making that person want to have this investment? And you can do that by demonstrating that you're worth that time in a lot of different ways. 

[00:36:55] Lara Quie: That's an important point. It has to be a two-way relationship. Definitely for the mentor. The mentor themselves get incredible satisfaction, as you say, investing in another person and seeing them succeed.

[00:37:08] But definitely for the mentee, obviously being able to tap into someone else's experience and learn from them, it's a wonderful thing. So yes, mentoring absolutely a hundred percent agree that that is something everybody should try and try and find a great mentor. Thank you so much.

[00:37:25] So, what's the best way for people to reach you? I know that you are very busy, but if they actually did want to reach you, what would be the best way? 

[00:37:34] Claudia Salomon: Well, for young Arbitrators, I would just say I really encourage them to join the YAAF, our Young Arbitration and ADR Forum. It's free. You then get information about events all over the world.

[00:37:48] It has a special place in my heart, and I encourage everyone to join. It's really for practitioners under the age of 40. There's lots of other ways to get engaged and involved in ICC arbitration, but I do encourage people to reach out to me via email or reach out to the secretariat at the ICC or the regional directors so that you can get involved and get connected.

[00:38:14] Lara Quie: Thank you so much for your time today, Claudia Salomon, President of the ICC.

[00:38:20] Claudia Salomon: Thank you so much, Lara. 

[00:38:22] Thank you for listening to this episode of the Legal Genie Podcast. Please leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts. It helps other people in the legal industry find the show. And don't forget to share this with anyone you think would benefit from listening to it as well. Until next time, have a magical week ahead.