Practice Director by Day, Rockstar by Night with Anthony Carroll of Twenty Essex - Episode 39

In Episode 39 of The Legal Genie Podcast, your host, Lara Quie is in conversation with Anthony Carroll, Practice Director at Twenty Essex barristers' chambers in London.

Ant has over 20 years experience at the English bar working with barristers from junior clerk up to Practice Director.

He shares his career journey and the importance of having an interest outside the legal profession.

Ant also shares about Retinoblastoma a rare type of eye cancer that can affect young children, usually under the age of 5. His daughter was diagnosed with this cancer when she was only 20 months old and has been receiving treatment at Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital and Royal London. 

You can find out more about retinoblastoma and its symptoms here: https://chect.org.uk

Ant and his family also have a fundraising page where you can donate and sponsor him on his Three Peaks Challenge in August 2023 in aid of the Bart's Charity and Childhood Cancer Trust, Bright Eyes: https://donate.giveasyoulive.com/fundraising/bright-eyes

To connect with Anthony, you can go to his LinkedIn page here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonyjamescarroll

Transcript

Episode 39 with Anthony Carroll

[00:00:00] Lara Quie: Hello, my name is Lara Quie and I believe that we only have this one short life. And we need to live our best life now. I want lawyers to learn important lessons from movers and shakers in the legal industry. 

[00:00:30] The mission of this podcast is to empower and inspire you to create a better life for yourself. Whether that's by finding a mentor, paying more attention to your wellbeing, developing your skills as a lawyer or even moving forward in a new direction.

[00:00:47] You can find my daily posts on LinkedIn so please follow me there. I do hope that you will enjoy this conversation and take away some real value. Thank you for listening. Hello and welcome to Episode 39 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me your host, Lara Quie. And today, I have a very special guest, my colleague, Anthony Carroll. He is a Practice Director at Twenty Essex, and he has a great wealth of experience that spans over 20 years working in chambers. So it's really exciting to have you here today, Ant.

[00:01:25] Ant Carroll: Thank you Lara. Good to be doing this outside our usual dynamic of colleagues. 

[00:01:31] Lara Quie: Exactly, you are the first and bravest person to be on the Legal Genie Podcast. There are a few people who have said they're interested, but nobody has stepped up to the plate, so congratulations on being the very first.

[00:01:44] Ant Carroll: Thanks for having me, Lara. 

[00:01:45] Lara Quie: Let's start with your childhood and where you grew up. 

[00:01:49] Ant Carroll: Yep. So I was born in Edgeware in North London. At the time my mum worked in a department store and my dad was a tool maker. I've got one older sibling, a sister, Louise, who's four years older than me, and I had a very happy childhood.

[00:02:09] I didn't leave North London until I was 27 actually. But there's so much to do growing up in London as well. So I never really felt like I had to. I came from parents that were very hardworking. There were times where my dad would have two jobs, so to maker by day and would have another job in the evening.

[00:02:33] Naturally, I had a very close relationship with my mother, who was around quite a lot and still do. Quite often, my partner, Emma and my sister will say I'm a bit of a mummy's boy in that regard and going to school in Edgeware, I really enjoyed my years in school. I was very social as a child.

[00:02:56] Perhaps I focused more on the social side of school than the academic part of it. Many teachers would often say that to my parents about me, but thankfully it worked out in the end for me. 

[00:03:09] Lara Quie: Indeed, it's a very important part of your role at the moment, that sociable side. 

[00:03:15] Ant Carroll: Exactly. 

[00:03:16] Lara Quie: But just thinking about that family, it doesn't sound like the sort of family involved in the legal industry. So what actually inspired you to become a barristers' clerk? 

[00:03:26] Ant Carroll: Good question. So the link was my sister at the time was set on becoming a solicitor. So, being four years older, at the time, I'd finished A Levels, she was coming to the end of her L P C looking to be a trainee lawyer. She was always the academic one in the family.

[00:03:49] I did my A levels but paused on making a decision whether to go to university because I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I didn't have savings to go traveling, which would've been my first choice. And my parents being the hard workers that they were said, " you're not gonna sit around at home. If you're not gonna go to uni, then you have to go and work." And at this time, so 20 years ago, there were often job adverts in the evening standard. And so, I was looking at newspapers for full-time work, and it was a mix between accountancy trainee, insurance brokers. I really wanted to work in the City, which, so some people, particularly in this day seems quite odd, but I was fascinated with people that were going into central London that were working, and I thought, this is something I'd like to do.

[00:04:44] And then I, saw an advert for a junior clerk position in the Evening Standard, and I had no idea what it was. So I turned to my sister to say, "okay, yeah, you understand law, can you explain to me what barristers are and what a clerk is?" And she had some knowledge but couldn't tell me too much.

[00:05:04] She could explain what barristers do and the clerks would manage their, diary and help get them work. And this was a time where there wasn't as much information on the internet as there is now. So part of me getting an interview at the set of chambers, a lot of it was trying to blag my way through the interview process.

[00:05:25] Which I wasn't very good at. And so I wasn't successful getting the job. But they did say if I am serious about a career in clerking, then there is something called the Institute of Barristers' Clerks and at the time, you could send a cheque for £10 pounds and it was cheque, no online payments and in return you would get by post every two weeks available jobs in chambers.

[00:05:52] So that's what I did. And then shortly, a few weeks later open jobs for junior clerks came through the post and there was a, job at 29 Bedford Row, which was a family set of chambers and the other for a junior clerk position at Atkin Chambers. I applied for both, and it was 29 Bedford Row that offered me the job first.

[00:06:15] And that's what made my decision. So it could have turned out quite differently had I gone to Akin or One Essex at the time. but that was the path. And yeah, 29 Bedford Row offered me first, and that's how my career began. 

[00:06:28] Lara Quie: Wow. The rest is history, as they say. But in those days, what was the role of a junior clerk? What did you actually have to do on a daily basis? 

[00:06:37] Ant Carroll: It's such an interesting job as, a junior clerk. And I think it was only when I actually started up in the role that I realized how much I enjoyed the job. So it was a team of five clerks at the time, and me being the most junior, and particularly in a team that small, you realize that you all are responsible for your roles and.

[00:07:00] If you're not doing your job, you're like a cog in the machine. If I'm not performing, then the others can't perform. And so I took a lot of pride in that. The role was doing a lot of the running around dealing with the post. First thing in the morning, at the end of the day, doing all of the court runs.

[00:07:19] And at the time, being the only junior clerk, if I had five barristers in court, I would have to deliver the papers and often leave their papers outside the courtroom door to make sure I can then get to the other court buildings to ensure all of the papers are delivered. And so that was learning how to manage my time with that.

[00:07:38] I feel like my quality as an electrician improved. I was changing all of the light bulbs in the buildings replacing fuses. I found as the junior clerk I was that maintenance person as well. Making the teas and coffees for conferences. It was such a varied job and I was incredibly fit because I wouldn't have time to sit around.

[00:08:04] And then slowly as I started progressing, I could spend a bit more time at the desk on the case management system. Entering papers. it was so fascinating and every day walking around the Temple, going to the Royal Courts of Justice, trying to navigate and find my way to all sorts of obscure offices that I'd have to deliver something to. I really did enjoy it. 

[00:08:30] Lara Quie: Yeah, it sounds very physical. I can see you now with those trolleys full of big boxes and files and everything. But yeah, I can imagine that was pretty exhausting. You must have slept very well in those days. 

[00:08:44] Ant Carroll: I did. And I, think the other thing in those days is there were fax machines as well.

[00:08:49] Which we don't have anymore, but quite often a brief would come through via the fax machine, and then if it suddenly runs out of paper, which is my job to refill, my barristers only got half of their papers. And so I was then running around making sure it was all filled up, and then the fax would start from page one again.

[00:09:10] And these things were incredibly slow, particularly when you've got deadlines to work to, or I've got a train to catch and I'm just pleading with paper just to start coming through. But it was a lot of fun. 

[00:09:22] Lara Quie: Yeah, it sounds quite exciting and I think a lot of the younger lawyers who are listening to this will be quite amazed by the concept of fax machines and papers and all of this in the technical age of everything just so immediate.

[00:09:39] But then after 29 Bedford Row, you moved on to Essex Court chambers. So tell us a bit about your time there. 

[00:09:48] Ant Carroll: The big difference is when I went to Essex Court Chambers firstly the number of barristers as a set, it was huge compared to where I'd come from. And it was the step into the commercial world and international arbitration. At 29 Bedford Row, we didn't, or the barristers didn't do international work. So that whole aspect of what a barrister does was completely new to me and fascinating seeing barristers traveling out to other jurisdictions, particularly in Singapore, I thought, wow. People are using barristers all over the world.

[00:10:32] And I was clerking for the barristers that really were the top of their field there. And so with that, the expectation around professionalism, the work that you do, the presentation of everything from speaking to people, to how you write emails. The level of standards were high and it really taught me a lot about that and making sure that the finishing product, what I deliver to barristers and to clients has to be exceptional.

[00:11:10] And so it really taught me a lot about standards. There was a larger quality clerks' room at the time that I was at Essex Court and so I really did learn a lot quite quickly from people that are still in senior positions now. And yeah I, think those were the real kind of wake up parts and I just felt, okay, this is a huge kind of international operation here, which I'm now a part of.

[00:11:37] Lara Quie: Yeah, sounds like it made a big impression on you. And you were there for about six years, 

[00:11:43] Ant Carroll: Yes. 

[00:11:43] Lara Quie: Tell me about why you moved on and where you went next. 

[00:11:47] Ant Carroll: Yes. It's quite interesting. I always think about a conversation that I had with my dad at the time and I would be working in the clerks' room with the senior clerk at the time at Essex Court called David Grief. And I would be preparing itineraries for international trips he was doing. And I remember speaking to my dad, so he'd ask him, I still enjoying the career. I said yeah, and actually the senior clerk is traveling around the world and.

[00:12:18] He's out seeing clients; he's out seeing solicitors with the hope to generate work. And yeah, this was something I hadn't really seen before. And my dad said, "is that something that you want to do?" And I said, "actually, yeah, it's the part of the career that I hadn't really had experience with because at Essex Court, I think the client facing side was very much done by the senior clerks.

[00:12:46] And it was a role of the aspect that I really wanted to develop. And so the opportunity had come up at Keating chambers, and in the job description it said that there is an expectation that in this role you'd be doing marketing and client facing activity. And that was the real draw for me because it was the part that I wanted to explore more.

[00:13:12] I wasn't sure if that would be part of the job that I liked but would really want to, try it out. And so that, that was the driver for the switch. And the senior clerk at Keating chambers at the time. Someone called Nick Child, and I think if anyone that's ever met Nick will know that he is client facing, client focused in his role.

[00:13:36] And so then being able to learn from him in that aspect of the job was a real privilege and it changed probably the type of professional that I am because I absolutely loved being face-to-face with clients and understanding actually what are they looking for in barristers, the bar, what do they want from clerks?

[00:13:59] And I became a much more rounded professional myself. And yeah, it was at the time it was a very good move for me and really paved the way for the person I am now. 

[00:14:10] Lara Quie: And after that, you joined Twenty Essex, where you are now a Practice Director, but tell us about that move and also your role as a Practice Director.

[00:14:21] Ant Carroll: Yeah. When the opportunity at Twenty Essex came up, it was too good an opportunity to pass over. Career-wise, it was a natural progression for me. It was more of a leadership role. And plus the, role at Twenty Essex seemed to play to my strengths in terms of managing the energy and infrastructure group, which I'd been developing my expertise at for the years at Keaton Chambers.

[00:14:50] And also, Twenty Essex is very strong in international arbitration. But I also liked the opportunity where I'd be able to expand my client base. Being client focusing at Keating Chambers, you get to know really well the construction and energy clients. Whereas this was now an opportunity to broaden that into more commercial areas and which I was very excited about. The set has a great reputation.

[00:15:20] And I was also excited about the opportunity to work with Jemma Tagg, who's the CEO at Twenty Essex. But Jemma came to the bar or chambers from a different background as she was previously in private practice, then worked in client relationships at a law firm. And I hadn't had, I hadn't worked under a leader that had come from that side before.

[00:15:45] And so I felt for my own experience, I'm now learning from someone that brings completely different skills to the role which, learning from that person would, again, make me more rounded and more knowledgeable in myself. So it was a no-brainer really. And I've really enjoyed the role and chambers ever since joining.

[00:16:07] And I do like the aspect of being more senior, being able to manage others and to help the development of other people in the team. Yeah, particularly the practice management team, but also obviously, the barristers themselves and having 20 years’ experience, being able to pass that on to others.

[00:16:29] That's something that I really enjoy about the role, and it's something that I think, is important for people to do. So I get to fulfill all that in my role as a Practice Director at Twenty Essex. 

[00:16:39] Lara Quie: And the clerks room is always such a hive of activity and energy. Tell me a bit about what you enjoy most about that and how you managed to survive during the covid work from home time. 

[00:16:54] Ant Carroll: Yeah, the energy in the clerks' room is great. I think it's important for us to be in the same room most of the time together. Particularly when you are. When others are learning from you, I can be having conversations with people and I remember from my own learning hearing conversations that senior people were having.

[00:17:17] You think, huh? This is how they're addressing barristers. This is how they're speaking to clients. The knowledge you can pick up from just eavesdropping at some point and it's important that carries on for the next generation of practice managers. And it, was difficult to replicate that during covid.

[00:17:38] And it was important that we had regular meetings where we would all be on a call. It's very difficult for as everyone I think experienced, You can't all speak at once when you are on Zoom or a Team's call, whereas in the clerks' room, there are more of those conversations that are happening at the same time as others.

[00:18:02] But we managed it very well. We stayed connected with each other and yeah. Working from home. It, does have its place and serves a purpose, which I think generally there are times that the team are, happy to be able to deal with certain tasks. But we ensure now that there is a day where everyone from the clerks' room is in chambers on one day as an anchor day as it were. And I think that's a really good way for us to be moving forward. And yeah it's working well.

[00:18:34] Lara Quie: So, thinking about any young people interested in becoming a barristers' clerk, what advice have you got for some sixth formers who are thinking about it right now? 

[00:18:46] Ant Carroll: I've always said, if you see it as a step into a career as a lawyer, that's not what it is. If you want to work with people, if you want a role where you're gonna get responsibility, then, you should definitely do it. To get information, there is more information on the internet about the role now than there was when I started. So, first port of call to not make the mistakes that I did, try and get as much information as you can first. And of course, on the internet where you have the I B C, you also have the L P M A, which will have information on the role.

[00:19:27] And speaking to people. I think finding out as much about the job first that you can is always helpful. And one of the powers of LinkedIn, particularly if people are looking for jobs, you can find practice managers, clerks on the internet and I don't think if anyone ever sent a message to me just asking a bit about the job, never would I ignore it. I would feel, wow, someone's taken the initiative here. And always happy when people reach out because it's a great profession. And I'd encourage people from all backgrounds that do want to work, if they have an interest, then to explore it.

[00:20:05] Lara Quie: And you've been in chambers for so long, you must have come across a few eccentric barristers and various people with interesting traits. Do you have any fun stories or anecdotes that you could share? 

[00:20:19] Ant Carroll: I could think of one that sticks out and it was one when I was a fairly junior clerk and I, won't say the barrister it was quite fun. There was an arbitration taking place at the I D R C, and the hearing went over into a weekend, so I was the person that I suppose drew a short straw that would have to come in to ensure that the barrister's papers were taken to court and everything was set up for them.

[00:20:48] And so on the Saturday morning I, got to chambers and, went to the barrister's room and I was fully suited. And then I saw the barrister in the ir tweed trousers, a jumper, which appeared to have some ducks embroidered on it. And the barrister looked at me and said, " Anthony, why on earth are you in a suit?"

[00:21:10] I said, " I'm taking you to a hearing and the suit is generally the proper court dress for me." And the barrister said, " but this is the weekend. We shouldn't be working on a weekend. And I don't expect to wear a suit on the weekend, so you shouldn't have to either." I said, "ah, okay, I'm in the suit now. That's fine. Noted." 

[00:21:30] So I've got the barrister's papers together and took them to the hearing and as I've gone through the doors and I've looked around and everyone set up in the hearing are all in suits, the tribunal are in their suits, the other side, and I'm panicking for the barrister then who's not come in yet, and I'm thinking he's got, he's not got the memo.

[00:21:51] Part of the clerk's role getting the papers to court, but making sure your barrister is appropriately dressed. And I thought, this is gonna be my error here. So I'm frantically then getting my mobile out thinking, oh, I've not got the silk's number in my phone. How am I gonna get a message to him?

[00:22:09] And as I'm getting anxious about that, the barrister has walked into the room. And everyone's looked at him because stood out as the only person not in a suit, and it was as if everyone else in the room was just invisible to him. He just walked straight over to where he was gonna be sitting for the hearing, checked that his papers were set up, said "fine", and sat down and just waited for it to start as if he's just doubling down in his position. And I thought, Okay. That takes some confidence and some front, but you know, you are leading, I think it's set a marker down. It was quite interesting, I told that story to someone a few years later that was close to the case. And they had some insight and they said, ah, yeah, I remember that. At the time the hearing was arranged, it was fixed for the tribunal's convenience to which my barrister was not pleased with and did not want to work over the weekend.

[00:23:05] So, as a protest, his plan was always to turn up and not wear a suit. Which I didn't know at the time, but it was funny then telling someone that story and could fill that in. And I thought, fair enough to you. 

[00:23:19] Lara Quie: That's a great anecdote and I can just picture it now, particularly the jumper with the ducks on it. He'd rather be out shooting grouse or something this weekend in his tweeds. Yeah, very stylish and rather traditional.

[00:23:33] But let us talk about the very interesting fact that you are Practice Director by day and hardcore band singer by night. Yeah. Tell us about your side career as a touring rock star with your band, TRC and the importance of having a creative outlet. 

[00:23:52] Ant Carroll: Yeah. Thank you. We're actually coming up to our 20 year anniversary next year. Similar time when I was looking for roles in Chambers, I started a hardcore band with friends that I went to school with. I got into heavy music at around 13 and always wanted to be in a band to just to be with friends, not in terms of thinking we would have any type of success. Part of it was just we go to gigs all the time. If we're in a band, we won't have to pay to get in anymore if we can open, which in reality was a driver. And we all grew up, lived in London and the band was very much a focal point for us to talk about things in society, in our lives affected us and just to be honest, through music and I was writing the lyrics alongside the other frontmen, and so it was good just to be able to, I'm not gonna say it's poetry, but to write things down through music and to have something outside of, work and life and to be able to play it, it was really key for us and important. 

[00:25:05] And so we, yeah, we've been doing that for, 20 years and we did get some, success and a bit of a following to our surprise. And so we've played some, pretty big festivals. We've toured over the UK and across Europe, and so for the 20th anniversary it will be, it's the anniversary of our first ever EP.

[00:25:26] And so for the first time, we are now gonna play the songs from start to finish in order in our set list. And we're gonna do a limited number of shows. So there'll be some in the UK, some across Europe. I'm speaking to someone in Thailand who wants to bring us over to, Bangkok, which would be quite fun.

[00:25:45] And yeah, to have something where being creative, writing music, playing music. It's so good for wellbeing to have an escape, something that's completely different but also a way to continue to interact with my friends and the friendships I've made around the world through music and through the band.

[00:26:07] It's so nice to be able to do. And I'd certainly encourage anyone, whether it's music or whether it's art or writing, to have something else that they can take some pride in and be able to do. Yeah, it's really good for you. 

[00:26:25] Lara Quie: I think that having a hobby is actually quite difficult for many lawyers and other people in the legal industry. And that is always something I emphasize to them to not give up on their hobbies. It's, so great to have, as you say something else in terms of, a distraction, something you have a passion for and for you, such a great social opportunity, an opportunity to travel, bond with your friends.

[00:26:52] Certainly on your Facebook page, I've seen the TRC Facebook page and you guys look like you have the best time, you with your band mates. Not sure about the music. 

[00:27:03] Ant Carroll: It's not for everyone. I know that.

[00:27:06] Lara Quie: Yeah, it's not for everyone. I will say that, but it just looks like so much fun. But let's move on. You're a real family guy. You've got two children, and it's hard being a working parent and everything like that. But tell me about the very rare genetic condition that your daughter, Elise, has developed. 

[00:27:26] Ant Carroll: Yeah, I'm fortunate to have two amazing children, six years old and two years old. My youngest, Elise, so at 20 months old, she was diagnosed with a condition called retinoblastoma.

[00:27:40] It's a very rare type of cancer that affects the eye. And it was my partner, Emma, that had first noticed the symptoms. So she was diagnosed in September and since then it's been quite a battle to save her eyesight. To save her eye and also to be cured of cancer.

[00:28:04] So she's had systemic chemotherapy in the last four months of last year. That treatment finished. The treatment well. People said, as cancers go, it's quite a good one if there is such a thing to have as a child, because yes, it affects the eyes, but it's unlikely to spread anywhere else in the body.

[00:28:26] So for us, it was right. We can focus on the eyes and the, thought of it spreading anywhere else that might have been at the back of our minds starts to go. And so then you are down to let's save the eye. And she's, lost vision in one eye where there is a large tumour, and that's where the focus for the systemic chemotherapy was.

[00:28:49] She has a small tumour in her, right eye as well, but where it is, it's not affected her vision. And actually having good vision in that one eye gives her about 80% vision overall. So you can't tell that she is blind in one eye and nor could you tell by the amount of energy that she has throughout the treatment.

[00:29:09] She's been brilliant, and children are incredibly resilient and what people go through, particularly with cancer treatments as an adult life is very different in comparison to children. And I've spent a lot of time in Great Ormond Street where she's receiving her treatment. It's not a place that as a parent you want to be, but in the circumstances, if your child is really sick, that's exactly where you want to be having your care. 

[00:29:42] And the nurses, the doctors have been incredible throughout. And her treatment's still ongoing. We're not out of the woods yet by a long shot. And in fact, tomorrow we're, back in great Ormond Street because she's now having something called inter arterial chemotherapy. So it's a type of chemo that goes directly into the eye. So yeah, she, she had a relapse probably, six to eight weeks ago now. And so the treatment is ongoing, but. She's in nursery a few days a week, so she's got her friends group as well.

[00:30:19] And we, just take each course of chemo each day at a time, and you've gotta think positively in these type of situations. And it's really put a lot of things in perspective as well, and the importance of family and everyone around me you and particularly everyone at Twenty Essex have been hugely supportive whilst we've been going through this.

[00:30:45] And it really does help when the people that you work with are supporting you and making sure that you are with your family throughout this time. It's made a very difficult situation that bit easier. 

[00:30:58] Lara Quie: I'm glad to hear that progress is being made and you're getting the very, best care.

[00:31:03] So 14th to the 20th of May is World Retinoblastoma Awareness Week, and I know that Emma was able to identify this in Elise just by looking at her eyes. So could you tell us a little bit about the sort of things people need to look out for if they were to notice anything a bit unusual about small children in their eyes?

[00:31:26] Ant Carroll: Yeah, so around 70% of the children that have a visible symptom of it is this white glow behind the pupil. So Emma had noticed it, which, at the time, was only visible under certain lights, but it was effectively a white glow behind one of her pupils which is where a large tumor was and had detached her retina.

[00:31:52] And that's why we were seeing it. And it is unusual, and I know people say whenever you see a symptom, don't type it into Google because it's gonna throw up the worst thing, which it did on this occasion. But in truth, when we went to our GP first, they couldn't see it and they'd not seen this symptom or heard of retinoblastoma really before.

[00:32:17] So they weren't able to diagnose it. So it wasn't until a bit later on that we took Elise to Moorfields because having seen it then I thought let's just get it checked by an eye specialist. So I would say looking out for the white glow and trusting your instinct.

[00:32:35] If you feel like something's not right take it further because I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but you don't want to be right and trust a GP or someone else to say that actually there's, nothing wrong there, so go with your instinct. I would say, and yeah, that's, that is a symptom that is most common that people will see.

[00:32:54] Other symptoms are redness around the eye. Poor vision can also be a symptom. These can be symptoms for other things as well, but things to look out for. 

[00:33:05] Lara Quie: I think that's so helpful, and particularly, as you say, we all know our children really well, and so that gut instinct where you go first to a generalist and when you've got something rare admittedly, they're not going to spot it if they haven't had that experience.

[00:33:22] But yeah, trusting your gut to go to Moorfield Hospital and specialists or whenever there's something with your child and you just know there's something else going on to go and check that out. So I know that chambers are doing some great fundraising activities. I think there was a cake sale or some fun things.

[00:33:40] It's great to raise more awareness about world retinoblastoma just generally because this is rare, but it's great if somebody can have that knowledge so that they can at least investigate if they do see something unusual in little children's eyes.

[00:33:55] Thank you so much for being on the show, Ant. What is the best way for people to reach out to you if they want to get in touch? 

[00:34:02] Ant Carroll: LinkedIn is probably the easiest way, and I think we're all on that. So, do reach out on LinkedIn. I'm going to be taking on the Three Peaks Challenge.

[00:34:13] So walking the three highest peaks in the United Kingdom in August. And doing it within 24 hours. So I'm doing this with some friends to raise money for the charity, Checks, which is the one that supported my family and others who have children with retina blastoma. So I've started training for that with some long walks at the moment.

[00:34:38] And so, I'll have a link there. And also, I think for anyone in particular wanting to follow Elise's story, we have an Instagram page called, " I Spy Bright Eyes". there we document the full story and kind of progress throughout treatments. And so yeah, that's where I am and the best ways to get to me.

[00:35:00] Lara Quie: Fantastic. We'll put all those details in the show notes so that people don't need to worry about making any notes. And they'll be able to click and just find those. 

[00:35:10] So thank you so much for speaking to me today, Ant. 

[00:35:13] Ant Carroll: It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me, Lara. And brilliant. 

[00:35:17] Lara Quie: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Legal Genie Podcast. Please leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts. It helps other people in the legal industry find the show. And don't forget to share this with anyone you think would benefit from listening to it as well. Until next time, have a magical week ahead.