No Prima Donnas Allowed at Setia Law with Danny Ong - Episode 41

Get ready for another thrilling episode of "The Legal Genie Podcast" with your host, Lara Quie. In Episode 41, she is excited to host Danny Ong, the Founder and Managing Director of Setia Law, a groundbreaking Singapore law firm specializing in complex cross-border financial disputes, commercial fraud, and corporate distress.

Join us on a fascinating journey through Danny's life, from his early years in Ipoh, Malaysia, to a surprising move to Singapore at the age of 16. Uncover the unexpected twists that led him to choose law over accounting, including a tempting bribery offer involving a motorbike.

Hold onto your hats as Danny shares tales from his legal escapades, from billion-dollar cross-border fraud cases to navigating burnout in the fast-paced legal scene of Hong Kong. Learn about the pivotal moments that brought him back to Singapore and eventually led to the establishment of Setia Law.

But that's not all – dive deep into the culture at Setia Law, the significance behind its name, and the secrets to fostering mentorship and mental wellness in the legal profession. Whether you're a legal aficionado or just curious about the human side of law, this episode promises insights, inspiration, and a dash of humor.

Join us as we unravel the incredible narrative of Danny, whose journey is sure to leave you both entertained and enlightened. 

You can reach out to Danny Ong at danny.ong@setialaw.com and check out his firm at https://www.setialaw.com/

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

No Prima Donnas Allowed at Setia Law with Danny Ong - Episode 41

Lara Quie: 73% of you listening to this podcast, do not subscribe. If you've ever enjoyed one of these episodes. Please, could you do me a big favour and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you can know and it helps me get more and better guests. Thank you. Now on with the show...

Hello and welcome to episode 41 of the Legal Genie podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. I first came across my guest, Danny Ong, when I heard about the launch of his new law firm, Setia Law, in April 2023. 

Danny is the Founder and Managing Director of Setia Law, a first of its kind boutique Singapore law firm, focused on complex cross border financial disputes, commercial fraud, international enforcement, and corporate distress situations.

He himself is a leading specialist in complex cross border fraud and asset recovery investigations and litigation. Welcome to the show, Danny. 

Danny Ong: Thank you, Lara. Appreciate it. It's a true pleasure.

Lara Quie: I'd love to start with your childhood and where you grew up.

Danny Ong: Ooh, that's a long story, Lara. I grew up actually in, I was born in Kuala Lumpur.

In the very early years by two or three I had relocated to a small, what was then a small town called Ipoh, I P O H. Made famous by none other than the Bond Girl, Michelle Yeoh. And that's essentially where I grew up from about two years old in a La Sallian school, right through to secondary.

And then at about 15 going on 16 my mother decided I was getting a little bit too naughty in, in secondary school in Ipoh and decided to pack me off and ship me down to Singapore. 

Lara Quie: I see. What are these antics that you were doing in your secondary school that meant she had to send you to Singapore?

Danny Ong: Yeah, of enough severity that she and my dad became rather concerned. And I was privileged. She made me take... What was an ASEAN scholarship exam, entrance exam, that it's essentially a scholarship that's doled out by the Singapore government through the Ministry of Education or the Public Service Commission for some reason or other, I qualified for that.

And by January at the year when I was turning 16, I found myself in a hostel in in, in Singapore. And schooling there, henceforth. 

Lara Quie: So you mentioned a hostel. So you were fully independent, fending for yourself, attending school and looking after your general everyday wellbeing? 

Danny Ong: Definitely.So from an environment where obviously fairly privilege in terms of a middle class background back in Ipoh with some help at home and wonderful food on the table chucked into a situation where it was a two, two to one room without air conditioning. Toilets were disgusting.

I had to do my own laundry. I had my own uniforms and so on and so forth. And needless to say, the food was horrible. 

Lara Quie: Wow. Well, that was quite a shock and a very big change for you in terms of suddenly you having to grow up. And did that mean that you needed to do Singapore national service?

Danny Ong: No, because at that point in time, firstly, I wasn't a permanent resident until years later after I graduated. And not being a permanent resident, it wasn't necessary. And even if one were to be a PR, it would only generally back then at least apply to second generation PRs rather than the first gen. Yeah. 

Lara Quie: So tell me about. studying at NUS and the choice of your degree subject and what inspired you to choose that? 

Danny Ong: Studying in NUS was well, let me backtrack. In terms of the choice of law, it's for some reason or other, something that has been in my mind from when I was young.

So it's quite clear that in my head that it was always going to be law, a second choice being something that I was fairly good at math and therefore accounting. And, upon finishing high school and junior college it was a choice between the two and between the UK for law or accounting and Singapore. And here's the funny story. So, so I was actually meant to go to the UK to take up and to read law. And my dad decided that he would try to incentivize me to stay in Singapore given the currency exchange from Malaysian ringgit to pound is quite significant compared to Singapore.

So certainly financially more sensible to stay in Singapore. You can take scholarships and student loans. And he bribed me essentially with a motorbike. And that was as little as it took to persuade me to stay in Singapore and take up the opening in NUS law school.

Lara Quie: So it sounds like you enjoyed yourself zooming around on your motorbike on the island, although Singapore is quite a small place. So I guess you went over the border to Malaysia to actually let loose. 

Danny Ong: Definitely. I'm a big foodie. And so some weekends a mate of mine will ride together into JB or even Malacca to eat and explore the nooks and crannies of Singapore where there's wonderful food all around.

Lara Quie: And so thinking about NUS back in the 1990s compared to today, what do you think are the main differences between how law was taught then and how it is taught today? 

Danny Ong: I can only speak to, to really to back then and today from what I've observed or what I've heard from, interactions with the law school today and from my team.

Certainly the sense is that it's more relaxed. There's more space and time to absorb and to go deeper and dive deeper into a subject matter. The difficulty or the challenges I understand it today is that the young ones actually have huge amounts of reading lists. It's also gotten a lot more competitive to illustrate.

I think back then I did a two week internship. Throughout a particular summer and that was that, right? Today you've got the young ones undertaking internships right when they finish their first year. Particularly when they finish their second year. They are trying to fill up their CVs with activities and mootings back to back.

It's tremendously active and busy compared to our time back then in the nineties. I, to be honest, didn't spend too much time in law school and much more time on the rugby field and tennis courts. And there was space and time for all of that as well. I think today it's a real challenge. I think that's the key difference. 

Lara Quie: I definitely have observed all of that as well. It's so competitive. And I think I suppose the advent of things like LinkedIn really encourage young people to observe everybody else's career track record. And they're thinking about where can I do the next internship?

Oh, which award can I win? Etc. It's a very frenetic and energetic approach to the law that they have had to adopt in order to stand a good chance to you know, Get a nice training contract at a firm like yours. 

Danny Ong: Absolutely. It's tough. It's tough, but I don't think it's any tougher than for example, trying to get into the best sets in London. Although I do think that it's more holistic when one approaches it, and maybe it's coming from the background, we're Kiasu right in Singapore. So, our young ones included try to push on every front. And I think it would be nice if everybody took a step back and had that space to grow and to learn and absorb the subject matter in law school. And that breathing space I think would be actually a net positive. Yeah. 

Lara Quie: You just mentioned "kiasu". I think I have listeners in 45 countries around the world. Could you explain that concept to our foreign listeners?

Danny Ong: That's a good one. Kiasu essentially is a Hokkien term, if I'm correct being a dialect of Chinese dialect that's prominent in Singapore.

Kiasu essentially denotes one who is always not wanting to lose and doing everybody everything possible to get ahead of the queue. So "kiasuness" would the typical example of kiasuness, which is actually a real laugh, is the fact that in hawker centres in Singapore before one goes to buy food one actually places a pack of tissue paper on the hawker center table to essentially reserve that seat for yourself.

It's something that is unique to Singapore. And it's prevalent. And I think somebody coming out of town would get quite a shock because they would do things in reverse, go queue for your food, buy your food, and then look for a seat that doesn't happen in Singapore, unfortunately. So Kiasu, I think that depicts it best.

Lara Quie: When I first arrived in Singapore, and I went to a hawker center and I noticed there was a pack of tissues on the table. I was like, wow, someone's forgotten their tissues. I hadn't realized that was what they were using to save their space. So yes. 

Danny Ong: Yeah, absolutely. And there was a time I was being a bit cheeky as well.I actually finished my meal and people were placing tissue packs around me and I actually took the tissue pack and used it and say, thank you. 

Lara Quie: That wouldn't go down well. And another thing very unique to Singapore is that actually, and I have actually done this, you can leave your mobile phone on the table to save your seat because it is so unbelievably safe.

Danny Ong: Definitely. And cab drivers will bring back your mobile phones to your home. If you had too much to drink the night before and left it in the cab. So only in Singapore. 

Lara Quie: Exactly. There's so many benefits to living in Singapore, but let's go back to your early career and what you did to get a traineeship or a pupillage and what your early career looked like.

Danny Ong: As I said earlier, I didn't spend too much time in, in, in law school itself much more time on the rugby field and tennis courts and the whole activities. So my academics actually weren't fantastic. There were pockets which exemplified some level of decency and the rest was quite rubbish really.

And, I was fortunate to have training contract offers from midsize firms as well as some large firms. I think given the diversity of my background and there was a particular interview where a very senior practitioner who's still a partner in, in a major law firm interviewed me.

And he asked me what, what was unique about me apart from the usual stuff that I would sell. I the key thing I said was that, well, I'll work 16 hours a day. Six days a week, and I only need a day's rest and enough time to shower, eat and sleep barely. He wrote that down on his notes.

And then I got an offer for a training contract. So that was Allen & Gledhill. So thanks to the gentleman there. And I was assigned, I was fortunate to, to have been assigned to a team that did a variety, broad variety of work ranging from finance to commercial disputes, joint ventures distress work, anything under the sun, really even real estate construction.

And because of the breadth of that team's practice I dabbled in everything in my first three to five years. And I was also fortunate to have a very good mentor who would have no hesitation in telling me that my English was actually rubbish that my drafting was horrible, but actually took the pain and time to sit down and amend and teach me.

So I had a very good teacher, and I was fortunate on that front. Also fortunate in that I had the opportunity during the first five years to actually assist in some of the most complex disputes that were happening at that time in the early 2000s. Anything from a billion dollar cross border fraud, which was unheard of.

One billion back then to the Asia pulp and paper restructuring to, to construction arbitrations in the early days that actually laid the foundation for my career moving forward. And as you can see right now, I actually dabbled quite widely, even if it's all within the confines of finance and commerce.

So I was fortunate, and I did a good five years with the team, which actually moved from across some firms ending up in my fifth year at Rajah & Tann, but I was completely burnt out by then. I did in fact work an average of 15, 16 hours a day completely burnt out. I was actually thinking of going back to Malaysia getting called there and practicing there.

The irony was that I actually did that and attempted that, but no one would hire me. A managing partner of one of the largest firms in Malaysia then and now actually say, well, we, you're wonderful and all great credentials, but you're overqualified for this market. So I actually couldn't secure a role in Kuala Lumpur in the mid 2000s.

So I decided, okay, I'll take a sabbatical. I went off. The managing partner back then was Stephen Chong and he was very kind gave me a sabbatical for six months. I headed off to Beijing to study Chinese. Why? Because coming from Malaysia into Singapore for schooling, I actually didn't take Chinese as a subject and barely my Mandarin was certainly not up to scratch.

So I went to Beijing, signed up at a language university, spent six months there, needless to say, I did very little of studying Chinese. And, as fate would have it, as I was finished that, looking for thinking about what to do next Somebody called me from Hogan Lovells in Hong Kong and said that they were looking for a senior associate because one was leaving.

And Lovells back then it was known as Lovells and Lovells was a team that I worked with back in the early two thousands on one of the most prominent uh, significant commodities fraud called RBG Resources, with a great senior partner called Crispin Rapinette, who headed the investigations practice of Lovells and a wonderful gentleman who has since recently passed.

So through that interaction got to know them, they picked up the phone and said, why don't you come by? And I found myself relocating to Hong Kong.

So that was about my fifth year after I finished my fifth year in practice, and then I spent about three to four years in Hong Kong with Lovells. 

Lara Quie: So you mentioned the burnout. What did that look like? And what, especially from a sort of symptoms point of view, could you share so that people can be aware that they may be heading for burnout themselves?

Danny Ong: I think it's different for different people, right? How we would show up and act up. Certainly for me, it was more straightforward in terms of more traditional notion of a burnout. I was barely sleeping, four, four, five hours a day. Weekends, I would generally have to work. Friday, I'll finish at nine o'clock, have a quick bite, shower, and then go to party, right, and drink copious amounts of alcohol and then come back to work and continue on that on, on, on Saturday and Sunday.

But the thing I think that, that. exemplified it more or reinforced or was a bit of a wakeup call was there was a particular day, again, working hard and then next morning woke up late rushing to, for a meeting with a major client. And I came out from my apartment and I just absolutely smashed my car into an innocent car in front.

And, obviously missed the meeting, um, but that was when I said, okay, enough is enough. He didn't even have the sense to, the attention span or the ability to actually drive properly, sober. So, , I think that's it said to me, it, it told me that enough is enough and it was time to do something about it.

And I think that the break was timely, and I think today there's a lot more help, a lot more awareness and assistance as well, because there's counselling there's emotional support, mental support. There's just a lot more awareness within the industry.

And obviously the young ones have a lot more choices as well. And, have the ability not to tolerate it so much. But having said that choices aside, I think when one is in practice and at the higher levels it's just simply intense. So it's as kind as the employer is as aware as the industry is the work tends to suck you in.

And unless you are very conscious, and you manage it deliberately very deliberately and the entire ecosystem in the system allows for that. Then you will get sucked into the dark hole and before you know it, your health is suffering and so on and so forth. So I think it's much better today, back then it was when you had books still thrown at people and no concept of mental wellness, which wasn't even a term that was used back then. I think the environment today is much better. 

Lara Quie: So there you were in Hong Kong with Hogan Lovells, an international firm. What made you come back to Singapore? 

Danny Ong: This is a personal thing. So I came back because I was going to get married to a Singaporean girl. So that was the whole reason for coming back.

I would otherwise have stayed in Hong Kong. I enjoyed it very much. It was a very sharp learning curve. It was exciting, dynamic and the distinction back then between the Hong Kong market and the Singapore market was quite stark. It was certainly quieter, slower in Singapore as compared to Hong Kong.

Hong Kong is just like New York City, right? It's just buzz. Of course today is quite different. I think the gap has closed significantly. But back then, because of the distinction, then the learning curve, the size of the cases, the international aspects of the cases. was just a cut above.

Today, as I said, the gap is quite small. I came back for personal reasons, therefore and today I still wonder whether I should, but of course, I've now met my wife and have two lovely kids and, no, no regrets there. But also no regrets because the year that I relocated back in 2008, um, by a stroke of luck I secured the brief to act for the liquidators and the board of Lehman Brothers in Singapore and which had within itself a whole group of entities.

So to land that gig within half a year or so of coming back and be involved in that was a real turning point and a real privilege in my career. 

Lara Quie: Obviously that was such a momentous case, and you must have learned so much about how a business should not be run.

Danny Ong: It was fascinating. There were the insolvency aspects. I oversaw by myself because it was so intense. Without roping in anyone within two weeks of Lehman's collapse, it had wanted to sell its Asia Pacific franchise to Nomura. So I was actually doing corporate work and overseeing the execution of that transaction for the Singapore Lehman.

So, insolvency, asset acquisition obviously beyond that many multiple complex issues across borders. It was a fascinating case, fascinating experience which of course went on for years. We also had regulatory investigations in relation to structured products that were mis sold in the market in Singapore and Hong Kong. Defended the directors from a lawsuit group action litigation in Singapore.

So, so many. frontiers from finance to commerce to corporate work to restructuring and insolvency. It was simply fascinating. And I'll tell you this I've always wanted to go to South America for a long trek through the Patagonia, ending up in Machu Picchu.

And in 2009 one year on, I thought I had a bit of a breather from Lehman, and I had actually booked a trip for myself for four weeks and paid 50 percent deposit to go there. I would arrive in Buenos Aires, go down to Tierra del Fuego, right at the bottom tip of Argentina, and then come back up all the way to Machu Picchu.

And on the day I was supposed to pay the balance 50 percent deposit, I had the papers with me coffee in the morning sitting on my balcony. And as I turned to the papers, the front page read mini bond investors sues Lehman. Right? And their directors. So within a few hours, I was at a board meeting needless to say that, that trip got canned, and I've never gone back since.

Lara Quie: Well, that's a shame. Having been to Machu Picchu myself, I do recommend that you definitely put it in your diary and make sure it happens. Definitely still, vigorous and you have your health because it's a very high altitude place. And so you do need good stamina and fitness. 

Danny Ong: Definitely on my bucket list. Maybe when I turn fifty.

Lara Quie: Oh, that's a good thing to do. So there you were, you were at Rajah & Tann and you remained there for a good 15 years, obviously kept busy with all of this Lehman Brothers and other follow on work. So tell me about what inspired you to actually leave and to start Setia Law? 

Danny Ong: Well, let me start with Raja & Tann. I had a wonderful 15 years there. Great colleagues, great culture and very progressive in terms of its outlook as you can see that, whether it comes to technology to new frontiers in practice including my own practice in terms of fraud investigations and asset recovery. Very supportive partnership and, excellent people. It came to a point where, you know, and I was also doing very well, very successful in terms of the practice and had a great team great support from the partners. But it did come to a point where I was feeling restless. It was very personal. And I think some people, or most people tend to have difficulty understanding it.

Seeing from the outside, at least everything seemed fine and good. You're a senior partner in a major law firm in Southeast Asia. You've got leadership roles and influence and a successful practice and a great team. So why would you disrupt it yourself? It's I joke, I say that it's my midlife crisis.

Some people buy Ferraris and then I start a new firm. But there was a sense of restlessness. There was a sense of being stuck and not progressing. I felt that I. I had my learning and my growth had slowed down and I needed a challenge. I needed to continue growing. And I get driven by that and, COVID didn't help.

And, and it was through COVID, perhaps like many others that I came to the realization that I needed to do something about it. And at the back of my mind since I was young, I've always had this notion of starting my own firm. And I said, okay, I'm coming to. I'm in my late 40s coming to 50.

I have a great team, a decent practice that I can port. What's there to lose? Of course, from a kiasu perspective a lot, and it, and I'm not. Although the perception is that I'm generally quite adventurous, I'm actually not. And it took a lot of thinking and reflecting for me to then say, "all right, I'm going to do this. I'm going to bite the bullet and take the plunge". 

Because by that time my wife wouldn't want to hear anything about me whining anymore. And she said, "well, you're not going to do anything about it. You've been whining for the last 10 years". And finally, I said, "okay, I'll do it". And it's really inspired by a sense of growth, the need to continue growing, challenging oneself.

And of course, in terms of the economics of it within the market is getting more dynamic flatter. I think 10 years ago for a practice like mine and my team's to actually relocate out of a big four was almost unheard of. And today is much more common.

So it's a saturated market, but also a much more dynamic market and more open market. So, so from a business perspective, we knew that it was possible to do decently well out there. And so we took the plunge. 

Lara Quie: It does sound like you have a growth mindset and a desire to improve yourself and continuously learn. So what about the name Setia? Tell us about the significance of that word. 

Danny Ong: Well, it's significant because my fellow founder and I had it was on the brink of completing our fourth bottle of wine on a Friday night at my balcony at home that we then came up with the name. So to backtrack a bit, we wanted a name that was Asian, preferably Southeast Asian.

A name that that resonated told a story. And initially we were actually very focused on a mythical creature. Unfortunately we, we couldn't find one that was suitable for use. And then we turned to language, right? Words. And because we had both grown up in Malaysia and we were familiar with Bahasa Indonesia, Bahasa Malaysia, and the Malayan language, which is part of the fabric of Singapore as well.

So, we thought about what words came from the Malay language as part of the Southeast Asian archipelago here, the Malayan archipelago. And we stumbled upon, the word "Setia" popped up. And we jumped on it and said, yes, that's it. So it's actually derived and has a long history. It's derived from Sanskrit which meant and in Sanskrit, it's described as Satya, S A T Y A, I believe.

And it actually forms part of the literature of yoga teachings. And it actually means truth, faithfulness, loyalty. All values which resonated with both of us, Wern Jhien and I, deeply. And also this is synonymous with our life as lawyers in our practice of as of law and our duties to the court and the client.

So we thought it was perfect. It was Southeast Asian and we went with that. 

Lara Quie: I love that story. And I think when you are establishing, you know, your own law firm, it's quite easy to think, Oh, shall I put my own name on it? It eternalizes my name uh, you know, Rajah and Tann, right? That firm will forever have those names when it comes to that, that is a very good thing that you were thinking very deeply about values. And when you start your own firm, vision and values are very much underpinning what you want the culture to look like. So thinking about that, what is the culture of Setia Law and how are you instilling that?

Danny Ong: Before I jump into that just on your point about taking one's name and putting it at the door. Wern Jhien and I deliberately avoided that. And certainly I felt strongly against that. The point really is that it, we didn't want it to be synonymous with us. Certainly not me. It needed continuity.

And the legacy would be in the ideal world a firm that. perpetuates and continues being successful and stable regardless. And so we avoided putting our names on the door. Values aside, the name Setia says it, but we actually truly believe it. We're known to be in a market to be creative, innovative, we push boundaries.

But it's very important to us that that we stay the course in terms of being guided by principles and not going too far off the rails. It keeps us grounded. And I think within that then translates into the culture of the team whether at, when we were at Rajah & Tann or at Setia has always been about growth and learning, right?

In and teaching. Holding one's hand and taking down a path, a very difficult, challenging path that is practice against the backdrop of all the noise that's going on around us, the competition particularly for the young ones and more so for the young ones the ability to help charter that, that growth journey and take that journey with them is something that we value and cherish a lot.

And we focus on a lot. It's not so much a value, but it's a culture of growth and learning. And also a culture of tolerance. And I think, if one is more familiar with our team, the background is actually very diverse. We have a big range of personalities. I think beyond myself because I'm not one of those, the rest of the younger ones are all very brilliant has in terms of their ability and legal mind, but in terms of personality and character very diverse.

And I think we thrive in that diversity and we're very deliberate about enabling that diversity to contribute to the whole team's learning and the growth of the firm. So diversity is another key aspect that we cherish a lot and we focus on a lot.

Culturally, it then translates to sharing of perspectives the ability to listen and take in different viewpoints embrace that and the knowledge that we are not perfect by any means and far from it. And we actually have to lean on each other. I am not half as smart as my associates are but I'm better in many respects in.

In some other respects that didn't the weaker at so, but together as a team we, we do excellent work and we can produce the outcomes that we want to deliver. So I think it's a recognition that it's a team, it's teamwork, no man or woman is an island and being humble. About our existence, being humble about our skill sets and really not being arrogant, despite of our achievements or, for the young ones, their credentials.

I think that is key for us. So humility is something that even when we look for trainees or new associates coming on stream. It's a deal breaker for us. We can't have a prima donna and we don't take prima donnas. 

Lara Quie: Good to hear. But retention of young associates is really a challenge for the legal profession as a whole. So what things are you doing in your firm to ensure that people remain committed and inspired by the legal profession? 

Danny Ong: I think it's firstly the need to recognize that the younger generation of lawyers value. meaning. They value meaning in their work. They want to find meaning in their work. It's not about spending hours and hours doing work that, that, that doesn't resonate with them.

And getting paid a lot that just doesn't cut it for them anymore. They've got options and in search of meaning. And first and foremost, I think the work has got to be meaningful. They've got to be able to have the opportunity to learn whether it's in the deep end or otherwise and have guidance while they're doing it and attempting that task.

And also opportunities to get their hands dirty very early on of course under guidance and supervision. So that to me at least from the the practice side of things in terms of the law. That is something that's very important to them, and you have to give them that.

Right? And so, undergraduates come to us and say, you know what would I have opportunities to do this or that to go to court and lead in advocacy. And we say, by all means, that would just make our lives easier. But one is therefore only limited by one's ability. And we are very deliberate about that.

We, during the first few sessions when one attempts to speak and to advocate at hearings I personally, and Wern Jhien himself as well, we sit in. We sit in at the hearings, we do mock runs with them before they take the deep plunge into the deep end and have their first goal, first few attempts at leading.

So it's investing in that. And it's also ultimately caring on that front but caring about what's going on in their lives and caring about their growth and development and investing in that. So it's not just the work, but what skill sets does one have and not have and identifying the gaps.

Like I said, because we are not far from perfect and we have our strengths and weaknesses. Some might be better advocates than others. And those others would need specific training on advocacy, public speaking, some are better drafters than others. And importantly in terms of a successful career, some are quieter are more introverted and, it's not so comfortable in, in a social or business setting in conferences and the like.

And we do make sure that we, we identify these strengths and weaknesses and the areas where we can improve and invest in that, whether it's external training we've got lawyers who've gone to the UK for advocacy training. We've identified and are working with trainers to build a program to enable better and improve public speaking. And for those drafting workshops for those that are slightly weaker in that and conferences, the ability to interact and put yourself out there. 

We made it a point that for the bulk of the conferences that we attend, the seniors attend we would mandate that one associate would come along with us. Just that ability to get yourself exposed and not just sit behind the desk. I think it's tremendous value to, towards building oneself and growing as a young lawyer. So that's what we do. And on the mental wellness side. We're working currently with a counselling firm to build a program, to ensure that whenever one needs somebody to talk to is having a bumpy time, they have the ability to reach out and be financially supported by the firm for that as well.So there are various streams on, on, on these training mental wellness fronts that we're working on. 

Lara Quie: That sounds like you take a very holistic approach, which I think, as you say, for the modern lawyer is essential if you're going to get young people to feel valued and to stay long term.

And thinking about business development, which of course is my favourite area, what business development, have you found has worked for you? You're obviously, a very successful lawyer who's brought in significant amounts of work. And now in your new setting the task of bringing in new business is even more pressing.

So tell us a bit about your techniques and what you can share with younger lawyers, especially those who are senior associates wanting to get into partnership. 

Danny Ong: Pressing on my shoulders so much so that they're sloping, Lara. But yeah, it's a monumental task and it doesn't come naturally for the bulk of us.

I would say for the young lawyers. Start with, and I say that from experience, my own personal experience. Start with the work that you are doing the people that you are interacting with at work, right? Be genuine, be passionate about what you're doing about doing a good job and that helps you firstly build credibility and a reputation. Interestingly, and people talk in the industry we do know who are the good associates. Clients, in-house counsel, general counsel, they know who are the good associates. Why? Because they receive the emails from them, they speak to them and they see their work product.

I think that is regardless of whether you're young, you're mid-level, you're senior, that transcends all levels. So start with the work and focus on that. Focus on the responsiveness. I think it's important for all of us to remind ourselves that we are firstly service providers, as much as one would think that it's all glamorous and you're a big hotshot lawyer and so on and so forth. That's just rubbish. You're a service provider first and foremost. And as a service provider, you have to ensure excellence in service, both in terms of the product and the delivery. And so, the responsiveness, the ability to interact with client be there for them, not twenty-four seven but, in a reasonable way.

I think that's crucial. And I think sometimes whether old or young, we tend to forget that. And certainly law school doesn't teach you that. So I would start with that. And I would then suggest that the exposure that one gets on the international circuit, building relationships through networks, through conferences, the young ones have plenty of opportunities, whether it's a young arbitration circuit or the insolvency young INSOL circuit, and so on and so forth for each subject matter or practice specialty, there is some kind of network, some kind of platform. There is one called AIJA, which is a global, a mini IBA type thing only for under 45s. So whatever the network, whatever the platform, plug yourself in there.

Build relationships and build relationships when you're working with people from Cayman, BVI, London. Keep in touch, be genuine, build friendships. I found that, and I was just thinking about it over the weekend. I found that actually there's always a core group of clients or work sources and that core group is actually represented by people that you have deep relationships with or, and people who trust you or trust you to point them in the right direction to refer work to you or to instruct you.

Even if you're not the most brilliant or most obvious choice, they trust you. And I think that can only come from one, the work that you've been seen to do and two, how genuine you are as a person and, what type of level or depth of relationship you have. So I think if you're genuine, you are honest, you're humble and you work hard at it and you bother because you care about the person you're interacting with, not because the person is a potential client or instructing party, but really approach it first and foremost as building friendships.

And I've personally approached it that way. If the work comes. It doesn't. And it's just good to know people and to know what's happening in their lives. And today, thankfully, that was obviously not pre planned or premeditated as an approach. It just came naturally.

But today from South America to the Middle East to, to China, if I needed something on a personal level, let's not talk about work, I would have somebody to call. And I think that is important in this world where perhaps, we are at risk of getting distracted by the economics.

We get distracted by material aspects, superficial factors. Let's go back to the core we're people, we provide service. We are in the human business. Let's approach things as friends and build from there. 

Lara Quie: Sounds good. It sounds like emotional intelligence is needed and affability. And this is something that I always impress on young lawyers that actually, as you say, build the foundations of your knowledge and skills first. And in fact, your work itself is your business development. A lot of people think they have to go out and network and hand out business cards for it to be business development.

But no, it is the quality of your work, the quality of the service, how your clients feel when they're using your service. Are you polite? Are you responsive? Are you someone nice to deal with? Because ultimately, they have to work with you. And if they don't enjoy working with you, they will go elsewhere. So I think that's a very important lesson.

Danny Ong: I think that's an excellent point, Lara. And we try to instil that in our team as well. This notion that they've got to like working with you. They've got to like you and enjoy working with you. And again, where does that come from? It's personality, friendships, character and above all, of course, the word product has a baseline. But it's crucial. It's crucial. And I think we're dealing with humans.

I think that's a, there needs to be a recognition of that and nobody wants to be working with a twat, right? 

Lara Quie: Oh, what the Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday at work? 

Danny Ong: Yes 

Lara Quie: But yes, I think that all these things are very much relevant to today's practice. So some last words of advice to our young lawyers listening. 

Danny Ong: Go out there, experience life at a personal level, at a professional level. It doesn't mean relocation but get exposure as much exposure as you can get. Whether it's secondments, moving in house, joining a tech firm, spending six months in Ibiza, DJing whatever it is, right? One year in Stanford learning technology law. It doesn't matter. Get out there, experience life because that I think is an essential foundation for connecting with people and then building a long, sustainable career. That's my two cents worth. 

Lara Quie: I love it. So where can people connect with you if they want to reach out? 

Danny Ong: You know, um, to the audience you're obviously welcome to pop by. We've got a humble, small little office, but we've got an excellent wine fridge and we're well stocked in the fridge. So, come by, have a drink with us. I'm happy to share my two cents worth anytime. 

Lara Quie: Thank you so much for your time, Danny. It's been a wonderful conversation. 

Danny Ong: It's been a real pleasure, Lara. Thank you so much.

Lara Quie: I hope you enjoyed that episode. Do help others in the legal industry, particularly younger lawyers, who could benefit from listening to the podcast by sharing it with them. If you want to hear more, there are plenty of earlier episodes where other leaders share their stories and advice. Please show your support and click on subscribe, and also give it a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Have a magical week ahead.