Social Media Mastery with James D'Apice - Episode 43

In Episode 43 of the Legal Genie Podcast, your host, Lara Quie, sits down with James D'Apiche, a multifaceted lawyer from Sydney, Australia. With his diverse background as a radio presenter, rapper aka Peach, journalist and lawyer, James discusses his journey from various creative pursuits to founding his own law firm, Gravamen. The episode delves into how he leverages his unique experiences and social media for business development, balancing professional rigor with approachability. 

The conversation also explores the evolving role of lawyers in the age of AI, emphasizing personal branding and the use of digital platforms to amplify one’s potential reach. Listeners will learn strategies for building a personal brand, engaging audiences, and navigating the evolving landscape of digital marketing for lawyers. This is a must-listen for legal professionals seeking to enhance their online presence and effective client engagement.

You can connect with James D’Apiche here:

T: twitter.com/CoffeeandaCase1
 I: instagram.com/coffeeandacasenote
 FB: facebook.com/CoffeeandaCaseNote
 YT: youtube.com/channel/UCzo6MrU2QQmwtLNGJ8kaBYA

Podcast: https://anchor.fm/coffeeandacasenote

Podcast 2: Spooko - FBi Radio

Law firm: Gravamen Law | Co-owner dispute specialists

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Social Media Mastery for Lawyers with James D'Apiche, Episode 43

Lara Quie:  Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Legal Genie Podcast, where I bring you insightful conversations with the movers and shakers of the legal industry. This podcast is a labour of love, recorded, edited, and sponsored by me, Lara Quie, in my spare time. So if you have ever got any value from these episodes, please, would you do me a big favour and subscribe to the show on Apple or Spotify?

[00:00:42] I would be even more grateful if you could share this episode with your friends and family and leave a rating and review so that the show can reach even more listeners. Thank you and on with the show.

[00:00:54] Hello, and welcome to episode 43 of the Legal Genie podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. And today on this show, I'm super excited to have James D'Apice broadcasting to you from Sydney, Australia. I'd also like to give a shout out to Will McLaughlin at KPMG for bringing us together in the first place, because we were both on his BG Roundtable channel.

[00:01:20] And that was where I first noticed James and reached out to him and our friendship on LinkedIn first started. So let me tell you all about James. He has so many strings to his bow. He started out as a radio presenter for FBI radio in 2003 before joining the legal profession. He was also a rapper known as Peach for 15 years and won a number of MC battles with his rhyming insults.

[00:01:48] In addition, he was a columnist and reviewer for Street Press Australia. James has recently set up his own law firm called Gravamen, where he practices commercial litigation with a special focus on directors and shareholders disputes. In his LinkedIn "About" section, he says that he brings his clients two main characteristics: approachability and rigour.

[00:02:11] James also has two podcasts. One is called "Coffee and a Case Note", which obviously talks about case law updates. But the other one is called "Spooko", where he appears as Peach talking with his best friend, Shag, about scary movies. So after that lengthy introduction, James, welcome to the show.

[00:02:34] James D'Apice: Lara, I'm delighted to be here in all my different guises. Thanks so much for the kind and generous intro. I won't talk too much about the scary movies because, look, they scare me as well, Lara. I'm working through those fears. We can work through it together. Are you a brave horror film watcher yourself, Lara, or do you cower in the corner like me?

[00:02:54] Lara Quie: Yeah, I'm definitely a watch it through my fingers kind of person. I judge my movies that I watch by their rating. So if it sounds super scary, so for example, I have just watched I think it was called, The Pope's Exorcist. Absolutely brilliant movie. Watched it on the plane. But it was a 15 rate.

[00:03:15] So I thought, okay, that shouldn't be too scary if it's for 15 year olds. So, I managed to watch through it. It wasn't too bad, but it was definitely on a very scary subject. 

[00:03:24] James D'Apice: How did you find Russell Crowe's accent, Lara? Did it distract you or were you happy with it? 

[00:03:29] Lara Quie: Oh, his Italian accent, not too bad. I mean, given that he is Australian, Australians are not famous for their language abilities. I would say he was pretty good, actually. I mean, he was good when he was speaking English with his Italian accent, but when he was actually speaking Italian, yeah, you could tell he wasn't Italian. 

[00:03:49] James D'Apice: Well, good on him for trying, I guess, is one thing we can say.

[00:03:52] Lara Quie: Definitely. So, goodness, where do we start? I mean, you're a podcaster, rapper, radio host, journalist, lawyer, but at school, what did you actually set out to do? 

[00:04:04] James D'Apice: Oh. I don't have a good answer. Can I scan ahead to uni, Lara, because I didn't have a clear idea? And so, because at school I didn't know what I wanted to do, I thought, oh, well, I'll start a proper degree and I'll attempt to begin the right sort of degree and hopefully through university, I'll figure out what I'd like to do. I didn't get the marks to get into law straight out of university, and so I did a commerce economics degree called arts commerce here with a focus on economics and then a focus on history.

[00:04:33] Then I jumped to what we used to call graduate law, but what I think is now increasingly being called a "Jurist Doctor". These days, Laua, I'm not sure if that makes sense to you, but at school, no the desire didn't burn for me to do law. My dad's a lawyer and his dad's a lawyer and his dad's a lawyer.

[00:04:51] And so all I knew growing up was I never want to do that. And so that's probably where all those funny other little career paths or career forks in the road have come from. But then as the time passed. The sort of momentum of my own curiosity ended dragging me in this direction to where I find myself today.

[00:05:09] Lara Quie: Yeah, so it sounds like you're from a very long line of lawyers and that despite your best efforts to tread a very different path and you did wander into so many different types of creative endeavour, you did end up eventually in law. I suppose at the end of the day, the decent income that you can get as a lawyer enables you to have hobbies and other things on the side. So you are engaging in all of those, but at the same time, having quite a good living as it goes. 

[00:05:40] That tends to be the plan. Although what was interesting for me, it was not so much the sort of what we might call the lifestyle creep point where, the life you lead tends to morph to accommodate whatever income you're earning.

[00:05:53] James D'Apice: It was actually almost the opposite in that through my time at university, I was making rap music and I was hosting trivia nights and I was working at a community radio station and I was entering rap battles and doing "cultural stuff", if we can put it that way and while doing the cultural stuff, I was continuing with my studies and even at the final year of uni, I was like, no way am I going to be a sellout lawyer, man.

[00:06:17] Yeah. I'm going to be a, a cultural commentator or I'm going to review music or something like that. And it's, I think I've taken the great benefit. Of course, there are massive privileges that arise when you've seen your family members have an enjoyable and long career in the law. But there are also additional privileges I enjoy of not having that fire burn for me for a long time.

[00:06:40] Because I think If ever since age eight, you were the argumentative kid and then at age 11, you were the captain of debating team and then age 18, you got the school medal and then age 21, you got the university medal for law. And so for these amazing people who the fire burns for their entire life. I feel that there's often the risk that they might end up getting fatigued in their I'm -in my early forties now, and a lot of those people are butting up against having achieved the things they've been wanting to achieve for a long time and thinking that kind of "what's next?" Sort of feeling where I've had the great benefit that's almost the opposite of pursuing a number of different little elements in my life, little creative cultural things and keeping law chugging along at the same time And I now take the benefit of not having burned brightly to desperately wanting to be a lawyer my whole life and because I didn't have that desperate passion, it's been able to gradually reveal itself to me as a really fulfilling and interesting and engaging profession.

[00:07:38] So I'm massively privileged in every way, including that sort of slow burn relationship with the law as well. 

[00:07:45] Lara Quie: Yeah, that's very interesting how you've managed to keep all those balls in the air in terms of doing the law, but also keeping your interests alive. And as you say, I think if you have always had a passion for law since a young age, and then just really focused on that, and basically sacrificed everything else, then you do reach a stage where almost sort of burnt out and feeling like, "wow wish I'd tried", you know, the grass is always greener on the other side I wish I could escape to become a rapper. They're quite a few rockstars, I think out there who definitely feel that they should have been on stage. 

[00:08:19] James D'Apice: Were there, like, if I can read between the lines, are there cultural adventures that the parallel universe Lara would've been on?

[00:08:25] Would we have been on stage Lara or we're writing our novel or what is Parallel Universe Lara up to in her creative endeavours? 

[00:08:32] Lara Quie: Well, I think I started this podcast because I had always wanted to be on radio as well. It all started when I was on a French exchange when I was about 14.

[00:08:42] We went across to Bordeaux in France, and there was a school radio, and I think I was the best French speaker in my year group. So they invited me on the radio and I had to speak in French on this radio show and wow, I tell you what, that was pretty exciting. That was my first taste of radio and I thought to myself I'd love to be in broadcasting.

[00:09:06] I ended up being a boring lawyer as well. Doing European competition law. But I think, yeah, I've always thought that it would be fun. So that's why I started this podcast to have my own radio show. And so here we are.

[00:09:22] James D'Apice: It's so interesting, isn't it? How Scratching that itch can then also empower you in the balance of your profession like so, you made a kind comment before about me doing law stuff and then keeping these other things running.

[00:09:36] I actually find it to be quite a virtuous circle in that I consider I'm a better lawyer because I'm not feeling desperately unfulfilled and unclear about, the other endeavours I'd like to pursue in my life. And then similarly that excitement and energy and the ability to engage with sort of complex cultural issues.

[00:09:56] And sometimes come back and inform my work in legal practice as well. And of course the opposite's true as well. All we're doing in law is trying to analyse and communicate and analyse and communicate. And the better you get at analysing and the better you get at communicating, hopefully the better you get at doing things like hosting Legal Genie podcast, Lara.

[00:10:14] So like European competition law. And guiding the careers of lawyers at all phases of their career journey. The two things work perfectly hand in hand as you're learning. 

[00:10:24] Lara Quie: Absolutely. And it strikes me that everything that you have done involves words, being a wordsmith. So journalism is all about writing as well.

[00:10:33] And that sort of critical analysis and all the podcasts and everything is all about words and communication, as you said. So All of these things make you a better lawyer in terms of the advocacy, in terms of writing skills. And so let's talk about business development because obviously, this is the Holy Grail for all lawyers, and many of the listeners are really interested in this topic.

[00:10:59] So, you've been on a real journey in terms of being able to leverage social media. And, if I look at your LinkedIn profile, it says, You can find me on Facebook, Instagram, here on LinkedIn. You can find me on all these podcasts. You can find me on X. You can find me everywhere. So, tell us a bit about how, as a lawyer, you have been able to leverage social media marketing.

[00:11:27] James D'Apice: There's a terrible buzzword Lara, that you've heard too many times and I've heard too many times, but sadly it's completely true. It's that buzzword, "authenticity". And so, the very short answer of how have I been able to use a number of different sorts of online platforms. Sadly, I've got to add YouTube to the list there, Lara that we've missed.

[00:11:48] And of course, TikTok to the list. I've got to add that. Using those various platforms is something I've been able to do because the way I show up on those various platforms is very much me. I haven't been putting on a face. I haven't been putting on an act. I haven't been rehearsing five or 10 times and trying to make sure I don't make any errors and over refining in a sort of perfectionist way. I've just been showing up as I am and because I'm not spending energy on fretting about whether I accidentally said "director" instead of "shareholder" eight minutes into a 12 minute case summary, I have the freedom to be able to spend the time I would have spent fretting on answering a comment someone might have made or on making another piece of content. And so, it's the fact that it's always me on each of those platforms and not some sort of character I've invented. Or not some person who's talking like a lawyer and doing what a lawyer should do.

[00:12:52] The fact that it's actually just me is very empowering and it allows me to be efficient and allows me to be quick and responsive as well. So it's that authenticity point that I've found easy. And Lara, if I could just bore you a little longer on that point, from a practical perspective. The way I've been able to show up on a number of different platforms is by being pretty thoughtful about how I, another awful social media buzzword, how I "repurpose" certain content and that's something you might have some experience with and we might sort of not out as we move through the discussion, but it's that authenticity part of the way I conduct myself and then that repurposing or pillar marketing element that I use in a really practical sort of a way.

[00:13:39] Lara Quie: I think that's the main point. The fact that you're comfortable with putting yourself out there as you are, but also not being perfectionist. I think most lawyers are just paralysed. Analysis paralysis. They tell me all the time things like, I don't know how you post on LinkedIn. Oh my goodness, I write a post and it takes me five days before I'll press the post button.

[00:14:06] And I'll think, this isn't the end of the world. What is it that you're posting that is so important? But why don't you think a little bit more about what you're posting so that you don't need to be so incredibly paranoid about it?

[00:14:22] Why don't you look at life around you, your observations share an experience. Look, this is a photo of me having just two minutes time out before I rush off to the courtroom. Like what's controversial about that? James, I totally get you. It is definitely about saying, OK, I'm just going to do something that I'm comfortable with and put it out there.

[00:14:46] And I think if people are so paranoid, they need to actually think about maybe not doing the case law analysis point, if they find that that's uncomfortable, they need to start doing things that actually are okay with them. 

[00:14:59] James D'Apice: I completely agree with that. And if I can build on that point, there are two fairly concrete suggestions I'd make. One of them is to sort of scratch your own itch. And so you might say, well, other people who are quote, successful in my field who post on LinkedIn. What they do is they post once every three months, and they post a 30 page PDF that is an analysis of the last three months of developments in their area, and they get huge amounts of engagement, and they are known as the venerable, leaders in their field because of the serious amount of analysis that, with great respect, was likely done by their junior colleagues, and they then signed off on and so if I want to be a leader in my field, I need to mimic that strategy.

[00:15:41] Now I reject that and I say, what your energy would be spent better doing would be scratching your own itch. And so you might say, look, actually, I'm quite a visual person, and I really think the clearest way to communicate with my clients. And I find myself scribbling on the back of napkins whenever I'm at conferences, or I find myself whipping out the notepad and a couple of different colours of highlighters to explain these concepts.

[00:16:06] You might find that's the way you're most comfortable communicating. And if that's right, I'd encourage you to lean into that rather than say, oh, well, the way we do it in my sector or my industry or my profession is this. And so if I can just say if I can practice what I preach on that view I'm most comfortable not reading from a script, I'm most comfortable getting on top of a concept, feeling confident that I know it.

[00:16:33] And then turning on the camera and just seeing what happens in a one take type scenario and it's just and a happy accident that's a sort of a format that speaks to me and it brings some value to some people who I interact with online. So my big concrete suggestion number 1. Would be that scratch your own itch point.

[00:16:51] You don't have to do silly jokes or silly memes because other people did them. You don't have to repost the, page two of the business section whenever your areas or your sectors mentioned. You don't have to do another great result for our clients today in this piece of litigation or whatever.

[00:17:07] You can just do silly jokes if they speak to you or you can just do pie charts or anything that really resonates with you personally. That kind of that authenticity scratch your own itch point. And if I can just make a second suggestion to build on that. It would be to build what I'll loosely call a diverse portfolio of types of posts.

[00:17:27] And so we'll, I'm sure we'll get into this when we talk about pillar marketing a bit more, but if I follow Lara on LinkedIn, I'm not only following Lara to go, "Oh, cool, another episode of Legal Genie's out. Great." I want to hear from Lara about that, but I'm also interested to take a photograph of Lara's briefcase that was a gift to her 12 years ago from a mentor who said something really moving and interesting to her, about the profession or whatever it is.

[00:17:54] And so I'm interested to see that photo and read that post. I'm interested to see a video from Lara. She's walking from one meeting to another to be like, Hey, I just had a quick reflection on this meeting and to get that sort of insight. And I might be interested to just have a link to a journal article that Lara thinks is of interest, about relevant developments to her or to me or whatever it might be.

[00:18:13] And so what I want to do by sketching that out is to say, if you are interesting to people, if I'm following you, I'm interested in you and I'm interested in learning quite broadly about the sorts of things you'd like to share. It isn't merely your hand drawn pie charts on the back of envelopes. I might be interested in those hand drawn pie charts, but I'm probably also interested to hear that you're excited because someone new's joined your team, or you've stopped working at one firm and you're working at another, or your clients had something good or bad happen to them, or, you're about to take 10 weeks off to go hiking in Kilimanjaro or whatever it might be, there's that breadth and diversity types of posts that I'd encourage people to adopt as they start to move online.

[00:18:58] Lara Quie: Yeah, 100 percent James. I really believe in the multi channel approach. I think, if you are a lawyer, it is very important to establish yourself as a thought leader, as someone credible in your particular niche. So the place for that really is, your bio that you have on your firm website.

[00:19:18] And all the contributions you make in terms of writing thoughtful articles, longer form content, etc. Speaking on panels, making sure all of that credibility building material is there. However, when you think of your own broadcast media, you can think of presenting yourself in lots of different ways across lots of different channels.

[00:19:41] And so what you can do is, so for example, if you're interested in the visual, have your Instagram page where you've got beautiful photos of all the things around you. That can be, life in a law firm, that can be where you live, that can be your interest in birdwatching, it can be whatever you like.

[00:20:00] That part of you, then you've got your LinkedIn where you can share lots of different aspects, just as you mentioned, James, but also just really doing a mix of different things there. You can link to that article that you've got on your website. You can talk about how fun it is to meet, with your colleagues for lunch and this and that, and really give a very full picture.

[00:20:22] Then on your YouTube channel, you could give a short presentation on a new area of law or development. You could ask to have a video of a panel that you've appeared on and put it up there. So, it's a way of just letting people I get to know you. So I know that you very much espouse exactly my approach as well.

[00:20:42] The idea that people have to know, like, and trust you. So, social media is all about getting yourself out there so that people know of your existence. Like, what is your name? Like, They now know your name because you are there. So you have to show up. So showing up is the first thing. So the "knowing" the "liking" is the authenticity element. Are you someone that they are going to get along with?

[00:21:09] You want to work with people that you like, right? Essentially, who are our clients? At the end of the day, our clients are other lawyers, right? Mostly other lawyers, or business owners, founders, CEOs, C suite people. But they're the kind of people that want to work with people who are going to get them. And if you are not someone who is on their wavelength.

[00:21:32] Well, it's better that they know that than if they randomly reach for Legal 500 and pick you out of there. So if they start to hear your voice on a podcast, they know what you sound like, they hear you speaking about different opinions that you have. They'll know whether you're the right person for them.

[00:21:51] Then the trust element, that's all the credibility piece, isn't it? But tell me about your take on the, "know, like and trust you" elements. 

[00:21:58] James D'Apice: Yeah. Look, I just endorsed that entirely. As you set it out, Lara, known the way I tend to think of it is just a numbers game. Is sort of how I think of it in the case of social media.

[00:22:09] So. How do you get work from someone? Well, that person can't send you work unless they know you exist. Right? So it's a very tick the box or not. Does your potential client know you exist? And one way to have them know you exist is to post on social media. I'm not here to say golf days don't exist.

[00:22:27] I'm not here to say never go to an after work drinks. I'm not here to say skip the conference in your industry. But I am here to say that one of the ways to solve the how do I get people to know me question is to make use of the internet in its current form. I just totally agree with you there, Lara. The liked point I really like the way you framed that the authenticity point, because a lot of us feel like we are members of a very old and traditional profession.

[00:22:54] And members of an old and traditional profession can often find themselves hesitant to voice views that might be thought of as progressive or challenging the status quo or something along those lines. My politics, Lara, I don't mind sharing with you, is fairly strongly towards the progressive.

[00:23:11] And so I've got some fairly firm and assertive views that I often share online. In order to avoid potentially people who would disagree with me, potentially engaging me and then three months in finding, "Oh, I'm sitting with this person who perhaps is pursuing goals that are some distance from mine."

[00:23:30] I'm not interested in that person who may have a different view of the world or not so much a different view of the world but who may be upset to learn of my view of the world, feeling uncomfortable when they've committed to engaging me in a complex and difficult matter. I would prefer, exactly as you say Lara, for that person to be aware of my views ahead of time and they might say, "Oh that's fine, everyone can form that view," or in the alternative, "no thanks, I don't think I'll support a business of that kind."

[00:23:56] And both of those decisions are fine, and I would always prefer for both of those decisions to be made as early as possible in the piece. And as you say, that leads back to that authenticity point. If I'm putting on a show, putting on the face of trying to squash down what my real views about the world are, in order to be just as likable and presentable as I can, then there's going to be a degree where that is an act and at some stage the mask is going to fall, especially as you say, Lara, when I'm involved with someone for 2 years, 3 years, 4 years over a very expensive and complex piece of litigation, when at some stage that mask is going to slip and if I've been I think dishonest perhaps is too strong a word, but if there's been an inauthentic element to the way I've been holding myself out, then I think it really exposes that relationship to having a very awkward and slightly unhappy moment.

[00:24:48] So that authenticity, that liked point, I think is so important. And then "trusted". Can you do your job to a reasonably high level? That's almost a hygiene question these days because there are so many good lawyers around, but you still need to be able to communicate that. And it doesn't always have to be, "Hi, here's my CV and here are the successful cases that I've been involved in."

[00:25:12] It can sometimes be saying," hello, I'm a technical expert, but I'm able to communicate about my area in a way that you are going to understand. I don't need to talk about the highly technical, fiddly bits of jargon I use. I can communicate in a way that allows you to understand. I know what I'm doing.

[00:25:31] It allows you to trust that. I know what I'm doing in that area." I just totally agree, Lara, that whenever anyone is approaching a sort of business development, "how do I get work in?" type strategy, having that known, liked, trusted triptych in mind, I think is very wise indeed. I totally adopt your view.

[00:25:49] Lara Quie: And also we've been so privileged to live in a time where we have access to so many different ways of communicating with other people, haven't we? I mean, the fact that you can be on audio, you can be on visual, on video, you can write articles, you can write blog posts, you can have your own website. I mean, the time for self publication, it's just never been better.

[00:26:16] So, every lawyer just has so many tools at their fingertips, especially now with AI. You mentioned, repurposing, there are various, very exciting repurposing tools coming online. I haven't actually had a chance to experiment with any yet, but I'm pretty excited about the fact that AI is going to enable us to be super, super efficient with our content.

[00:26:39] Obviously we do need to invest the time, make the effort to produce the original content, but if you shoot a video, for example, about something let's say, 15 minute video, you'll be able to just upload that video and then this AI is going to magically post it in , different formats on different channels for you, the audio on a podcast, the snippet story or on a reel or all sorts. There are really no excuses for lawyers not to get comfortable with leveraging AI tools. 

[00:27:15] James D'Apice: I think that's so true. And I think it'll become almost increasingly true as you rightly say, Lara, that so much of the content production we do, or certainly I do, I won't throw you under the same bus, Lara, but it's what we might think of as the grunt work.

[00:27:30] I've yet to have a caption service do work for me that I've found to be totally satisfactory. And that means that all of the captions I have on my videos that are sometimes 8 or 10 or 12 minutes long. Me late at night or early in the morning or whenever it might be sitting there, tippy tappy typing away myself in order to satisfy myself that some person who might have challenges with hearing or just might have their headphones turned off, can take from what I've recorded the same value as people who have a different experience of life.

[00:28:00] And so, that work I'm sure, but I'm still waiting for the day is the exact kind of grunt work that we want to tag AI in for to ensure that we've got more energy to devote to the sort of higher level strategic type thinking, because you can't, I adopt what you say as well, you can't delegate everything to AI, but if you're strategic, you can make sure you're doing the really hard thinking, important conceptual bit, And then you are leveraging the resources around you to squeeze the most juice out of your very smart idea, your very smart concept itself.

[00:28:38] So if you're able to get that leverage going, then that's a really healthy path to having a successful online strategy that also saves you time yourself. 

[00:28:49] Lara Quie: Yeah, that's the key, saving you time from the grunt work. I think, we can all benefit from these fantastic tools that speed things up.

[00:28:58] So thinking about the launch of your brand new law firm, tell me a little bit about that and also your BD strategy that you're going to use for launching it. 

[00:29:08] James D'Apice: Yeah. So it's been trading for about six weeks now, seven weeks. Gravamen. So we're having this chat in late December, 2023.

[00:29:17] We started trading in mid November, 2023. And I need to start saying we for the firm. I previously left a role as a partner in a sort of small national law firm earlier this year and you leave a role like that and you think, yeah, okay. That's that phase done. Let's think about what we're going to do.

[00:29:33] Are we going to start our own thing? Are we going to join another firm? Are we going to start a new firm with someone else? Are we going to go to the bar? And really, that was the main question for me was alright having resolved that, that we're done with the previous phase, is the next phase to go read for the bar? Or is the next phase to open up my own shop? And after a fair bit of soul searching the idea of opening up Gravamen is where we arrived at and it's a firm that's designed to be hyper specialist and luckily enough, so far we've managed to do that.

[00:30:04] In that it's very much just trustee beneficiary or partnership or shareholder director disputes. And so we're not even edging into debt claims. We're not even edging into broader types of commercial litigation or anything like that. We're staying very much in our very specialized lane. Whether that's sustainable as the firm sort of ticks along into future years and as new people potentially come and join the fun, I think is a different question.

[00:30:29] But the point of Gravamen Is to have a place that is a specialist place that is able to do specialist work in a specialist area and that is able to do so in a way that works both for our clients and for ourselves. For me, frankly. It's a firm that is launched on a four and a half year old Mac book that like we're speaking on here and it is launched on an iPhone that I got three and a half years ago that I'm yet to update and it's launched while look, I'm a parent of three children.

[00:31:00] My wife is a very successful business person in her own right, and part of Gravamen is designed to be able to breathe in to flex and bend to work around school runs to work around partners who have got to go attend a conference in another state and kids who might be sick and to be able to work with our lives here as we work for Gravamen.

[00:31:21] And also work for our clients lives where they find us. So it's very much a niche specialist firm. Sadly, it charges like a niche specialist firm. So the financial outcome already has been reasonably pleasing. Although that's obviously not why we do these things. But it's designed to do high quality work for clients in a specialized space.

[00:31:43] And it's designed to do that in a way that works for us, for me so far here at Gravamen including consistently with our values that I alluded to earlier. So, yeah, it's been good fun so far. And sorry to the second part of your question. Thank you for it. How are we going to launch it?

[00:31:59] Well, I was lucky enough to be invited to Clarissa Raywood's "The Club" her retreat, which is a popular conference held here in Australia for smaller and sometimes solopreneur lawyers to come together in a place called Kingscliff just south of the Gold Coast in New South Wales.

[00:32:14] And I was invited to give a talk on social media. We were covering similar points to the points we've covered today, Lara, and I said, "Oh, look, hey, pillar marketing, recording videos, yep, do it on Facebook, LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram, etc. And I'll tell you what, let's do a case study right now, because if everyone could please pull up their phone, I've got this account for this law firm that has zero followers at the moment.

[00:32:36] And so if you'd be kind enough to sling it a follow, you'll see I've been uploading content to that Instagram page for a few weeks now, and so hopefully you'll get some value by following along with the firm. "And so. The marketing for the firm has essentially been the marketing of me so far, frankly, because it's so new and it's so much just based on my network and my specialty that all of its clients just come from my own network and people reaching out to me.

[00:33:01] And so essentially at the moment, it's just really a business name and a trust account and a couple of other things that allow me to do the sort of legal work in my area, but as the business grows and matures, it will be taking advantage of all those online destinations. I just recorded a TikTok for Gravamen before we hopped onto this call.

[00:33:19] And it'll start taking a physical presence as well of trying to build networks amongst trusted advisors of local accountants, local lawyers, people who refer matters onto a specialist firm like ours. So keeping our referrers happy and making sure that we're known, liked and trusted by the people who hopefully think of us.

[00:33:36] I mean, Lara, I expect you'd probably recommend a similar strategy to other sort of solo or very small law firms. I was reflecting on your approach and how far it differs when you're thinking of your mid tier, as we tend to call them in Australia and larger clients versus those who have a smaller or perhaps more boutique or specialized practice area.

[00:33:55] Do you draw a line between the two approaches when you're reflecting on what sort of advice to give or what sort of approach to take? 

[00:34:01] Lara Quie: Yeah, that's a great question. I think there are two different paths there, mainly because the larger firms do place quite a lot of restrictions on the partners and the lawyers in their firms.

[00:34:13] So they will have, policy that may be quite restrictive in terms of what they feel comfortable with doing. So for them I'd say, Leveraging LinkedIn to just show their personality and post about wider interests and gain the likeability and human factor is really important. And to really focus on the credibility piece.

[00:34:37] So making sure that you are making an effort to write good content to speak on panels, to get yourself out there as a thought leader. So I would focus much more on that if I were in a medium to larger size firm. But when it comes to being a founder of your own firm, or when you're in a much, much smaller, especially boutique firm like Gravamen I would say you've got a lot more freedom and it's a lot more about personality.

[00:35:07] It's so much more about finding clients who get you and want to engage with you as an individual. So that's where the opportunity to really leverage every other platform. So the Tik Tock and the more fun stuff like Facebook and Instagram because I think, you would definitely be a lot more conscious about those if you were in a large firm.

[00:35:28] And also you don't necessarily find as many clients in that space if you're at a larger firm charging really big fees. So when you're a smaller a more kind of agile entity, I think it goes with the territory that you can be creative, that you have to bootstrap, you have to think of yourself as a startup. 

[00:35:48] So, looking at all of these incredible YouTube channels where there are these influencers who are just taking the world by storm. There are so many of them who have perhaps a small retail firm or perhaps they're selling services or perhaps they're professional YouTubers. But I think we can learn incredible amounts of tactics and tips and tricks and hacks as to how we can also leverage social media in the way that they do to attract a following, to get that reach.

[00:36:21] I mean, like literally millions and millions of people. I mean, I reviewed my LinkedIn yesterday. I think it's like 1. 3 million views on LinkedIn alone in the past year. I mean, if you think about it, that is crazy and all of this is free. We have to remember that you mentioned right in the beginning about the numbers game and it really is that. If 200 people came to you tomorrow, you'd be like, oh my, that is too much.

[00:36:51] I can't actually handle 200 new clients. The reality is that as a lawyer, you probably need five really good clients. That is all you need, only five. So if you've got content that has attracted 1. 3 million views in a year. Are you going to find five clients? The likelihood is high because if you think about it, you're going to hit a good multiple of five easily.

[00:37:19] So that is it. This is the game that we're in nowadays is how can you get more reach? How can you attract those people who don't just like plain vanilla, but they like you and what are you? Are you pistachio? What is that one? Fish? Fish food or chunky monkey? There are all of these wonderful flavours But you have to hang your hat somewhere.

[00:37:44] You can't be that plain vanilla as you said, you know with your views. You either want people who are with you or you don't want to see them And I really think that this is what we want. We want people to know us for who we are. We want to relax and just be ourselves, not wear that mask, although we have to wear the face mask. Those are scarily coming back in over here in Singapore.

[00:38:06] Yes. . But yeah, I think lawyers just need to relax a bit and get comfortable and think strategically about how can they show themselves to be human because now that we're competing with AI on so much of the technical stuff, what we need to demonstrate is our commerciality and our ability to communicate with customers in terms of the client experience.

[00:38:36] Do we care? Are we empathetic? Are we effective and commercial? And that is what people want to see. 

[00:38:44] James D'Apice: I couldn't agree more. And if I can linger on the competing with AI point? I feel like there can be a lot of catastrophizing about AI of like, Oh, it's like going to war with the Terminators in, the, like the Terminator series.

[00:38:57] And that's obviously wrong. All AI is as we currently conceive it, or I find the most useful way to think of it is an extremely efficient amalgam of all that has come before. And so it's the most vanilla there is. And so to just pick up Lara on your metaphor, you're not really going to have better vanilla than what AI can produce.

[00:39:24] And so that's not a battle you're likely to win. And so I'd probably encourage you to lean into your hobby of teaching disabled kids horse riding two days a month or whatever it is to assist me to understand a little more about you. Than the fact that you've written a blog post that is about 600 words in length that descends into numbered bullet points about 1 3rd of the way down and then ends with a final paragraph that's very readable and approachable.

[00:39:51] That's like the time for the ChatGPT style blog post with a couple numbered bullet points thrown in is obviously done. But the time for the increasing humanity of each and every one of us. And the increasing authenticity of each and every one of us, I think is well and truly arrived.

[00:40:10] Lara Quie: Yeah. And I think that's why we really need to lean into video and audio, because none of us are going to trust the written word anymore, because we know that most people will be leveraging ChatGPT and other generative AI to produce this content. These people will not necessarily have that knowledge in their head.

[00:40:33] But when you're able to sit on a panel or speak on a podcast and, tell people things just off the top of your head because you know the stuff, that is going to be far more convincing. And that's why I think that people need to really think about how can they get their voices heard? How can they get on video showing themselves in action and demonstrating that warmth, approachability and rigor that is necessary to be a lawyer.

[00:41:02] James D'Apice: That's the plan. That's the plan. Lara, are you happy for me to assign some homework to anyone who's been listening in and is thinking about this stuff? The homework I'd assign for anyone who accepts my view of the world and I say with great respect, I think Lara, you and I probably speak a little bit with the same voice on this stuff.

[00:41:20] Is the metaphor that was presented to me that I find really useful is a pillar. And so a pillar can be one central idea for your content. And that central idea might be, "hey, there's been a change to the tax legislation that affects my industry." And I don't know what you do, sports shoes. The sports shoe tax has changed.

[00:41:39] Right? That can be your central pillar. And it has changed to increase the amount of reporting you've got to do from every six months on your sports shoes to every three months or whatever. And so you're aware that this is going to be useful information to you and your sports shoe clients. And so that's your central idea.

[00:41:59] And so the challenge I would issue to anyone listening is to spin as many pieces of content in as many different locations from that pillar. Now, the traditional approach might be to say, "Hey, can you get a junior in your team to draft a blog post about the sports shoe tax? And can you then approve that draft? And once you're happy with it, can you send it through to IT so they upload it to the firm's blog?" 

[00:42:24] And I say, with great respect, that is probably an approach we've all adopted at some stage and said, "Great, there we are done. We've squeezed as much juice from the sports shoe tax update as we can." I say that if you accept the way Lara and I are prodding you to think about things, the next thing for you to do is to say, "Well, I've got this pillar of this sports shoe tax. What more can I squeeze from it?" 

[00:42:48] And I say, "look, an initial step can be a LinkedIn written post, or it could even be a LinkedIn link to your firm's blog post where you say, Hey I've just written this blog post. It's pretty interesting. Hashtag sports shoes or whatever the hashtags used in your industry are, and off you go."

[00:43:04] And then, if you can summon up the courage, you might turn your phone around on yourself and it might be in your boardroom and you might have three rehearsals. And you might have a big pile of notes just behind the screen. But frankly, it's your area. It's your industry. You've just written or you've just helped write the post.

[00:43:20] You're on top of this. If you look down the phone and say pretty much what you would say to your client at a presentation, "Hey, as last year, the sports shoe tax was like this. Next year, it's going to be like that. So make sure you've got your 1, 2, 3 all set up and your 4, 5, 6 will follow." And you just recorded a video.

[00:43:38] And if you upload the audio from that video, using any number of free and available podcast uploading services. You've then got a podcast and as you click through thinking about, well, where am I going to post this video? Is it going to be on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, X, TikTok, YouTube? Where is it going to end up?

[00:43:59] And if you can tick more than one of those boxes with the video and more than one of the boxes with the written work and more than one of the boxes with the podcast audio, what you're doing is you're spending your own time and more efficiently, and you're increasing the likelihood that someone will get to know and get to like and get to trust you.

[00:44:17] And so the gauntlet I'd throw down is anytime you've got a pillar to think about spinning as many different pieces of content from that pillar as you can. 

[00:44:25] Lara Quie: 100%. I think everybody needs to remember that what they need to do to give themselves autonomy and power is to build their personal brand that's portable.

[00:44:36] Gone are the days when you would sit there and have a job for life. I'm really sorry, folks, but what I see every single day is lawyers who think they're sitting pretty as partners in a really big name. I'm really sorry, but on a daily basis, I hear from people who are pushed out. So you cannot just sit there complacently.

[00:45:00] You have to take charge. You have to build your personal brand that's portable. So that if you go to a new firm or you launch your own, or you do something completely different, you might become a consultant, or you might go into other areas of the legal industry, whatever it is you do. You've already established yourself as a name.

[00:45:21] You've got the credibility and the opportunities will come to you. So, that is really important to have your own channels. So you have to build your LinkedIn and your following there. You have to have some platforms of your own. And also increasingly, words that I'm seeing in the skills that are sought after, a lot of it is around communication, personal branding, coaching, all of these things that people want nowadays.

[00:45:49] And social media marketing, these are huge skills and certainly the junior lawyers that are coming through right now, they are incredible at leverage. All of this and they are leapfrogging partners who haven't taken advantage And they are bringing in work that these partners are having to do. So I mean the world has turned on its head because of that you've got to see it as an opportunity.

[00:46:13] I think people, like you, James, who have recognized the gift that we have at our fingertips And the AI as a tool is the most fantastic tool ever. We just have to learn how to use it to our advantage and those who know how to use it are going to be the biggest success in the future.

[00:46:33] They are the ones who are going to have all the work flooding in from all their different channels on their DMS. And yeah, so it's super exciting. So tell me about what you've got in store for 2024. 

[00:46:45] James D'Apice: Oh, Lara I'll do a bit of work, take the kids to and from school, send out a few invoices, appear in court a few times, that sort of thing.

[00:46:53] I'm afraid it's very much going to be a year of finding out what Gravamen is all about. So at the moment, it's very much just a client services firm. And some of those client services are what we call white label work, where other law firms will engage me as a specialist to ghost or consult with some of the work they're doing.

[00:47:09] So I'll continue doing that client work, continue doing that white label work. I've got a number of that very conservative lawyer in me really hates the word, a number of products and those products are likely to be in the form of one hour training and 6,000 or 7,000 words sort of backup papers that we here in Australia called CLEs- continuing legal education.

[00:47:30] So, people will be able to pay to see my face moving around talking about derivative actions or corporate oppression or shareholder disputes or trustee beneficiary disputes, and they'll be able to pay a bit more to see the notes that I've made in preparing for that talk. And so what I think we've got lined up for Gravamen is more of the same on one hand of doing some client work.

[00:47:50] And perhaps taking a little dip into products to see what sort of firm we're creating here, because, in a year's time look, Gravamen might buy a coffee cart and I might just be slinging cappuccinos all week or in a year's time, it might be a fairly traditional law firm heading off to court every so often, or it might be somewhere between those two.

[00:48:09] So Lara, next year is a year of being open minded, trying a couple of things, but also keeping that corporate litigation, commercial litigation, heart of the firm bubbling. 

[00:48:19] Lara Quie: Fantastic. Sounds very exciting. So if people want to connect with you, you're on so many platforms, where would be the best place?

[00:48:27] James D'Apice: Oh, Lara, I love this question because my answer is anywhere that works for you. So if you're a LinkedIn person, please feel free to search for me, James D'Apiche, or Coffee and a Case Note, or Gravamen or all of those there. Same as if you're an Instagram person, or if you're a Facebook person, or if you're a YouTube person, or if you're an X person, if you're a TikTok person, Instagram person.

[00:48:49] You should be able to find me anywhere. I want people to have to do as little work as possible to have me in their lives. So I'd like to show up wherever you'd like me to show up in your content journey. I'm not on Snapchat because I'm afraid I'm just too old. And so I haven't spent the time to figure that out. But, I should be showing up on your podcast provider, LinkedIn, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, wherever you'd like to find me. 

[00:49:11] Lara Quie: Wow. I think people will definitely be able to find you. So that is fantastic. Well, thank you for sharing all your insights today, James.

[00:49:20] Thank you for being on the show. 

[00:49:22] James D'Apice: Lara, a delight. I really enjoyed the conversation too. So thanks so much for having me.

[00:49:26] Lara Quie: I hope you enjoyed that episode. Do help others in the legal industry, particularly younger lawyers, who could benefit from listening to the podcast by sharing it with them. If you want to hear more, there are plenty of earlier episodes where other leaders share their stories and advice. Please show your support and click on subscribe, and also give it a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Have a magical week ahead.