The Makings of the Modern Lawyer with Iain Sharp, Partner at Hill Dickinson - Episode 45

In this engaging episode of The Legal Genie Podcast, your host, Lara Quie, delves into "The Makings of the Modern Lawyer" with the insightful Iain Sharp, a partner specializing in International Trade, Commodities and Dispute Resolution at Hill Dickinson, currently based in Singapore. As they celebrate the Chinese New Year, Iain shares his rich international journey, including a significant tenure in Asia which has shaped his approach to law.

The conversation illuminates the evolving landscape of legal careers, emphasizing the value of alternative paths into the profession and the indispensable role of soft skills like communication, empathy, and emotional intelligence in achieving success. 

Moreover, this episode explores the necessity of continuous learning and mentorship within the legal field. Iain and Lara discuss strategies for young lawyers to develop their careers, from seeking mentors to embracing opportunities for self-improvement and understanding the commercial realities of their clients' industries.

As the discussion unfolds, it becomes clear that the essence of a successful modern lawyer transcends mere technical expertise. It encompasses a holistic set of skills, including adaptability, communication, and a deep commitment to personal growth. 

Iain's journey and insights offer valuable lessons on navigating the challenges and opportunities within the dynamic world of law, making this episode a must-listen for aspiring and established legal professionals alike.

You can find Iain on LinkedIn HERE

And read more about him on his firm’s website here: Iain Sharp | Hill Dickinson

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

The Makings of the Modern Lawyer with Iain Sharp, Episode 45

[00:00:17] Lara Quie: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Legal Genie Podcast, where I bring you insightful conversations with the movers and shakers of the legal industry. This podcast is a labour of love, recorded, edited, and sponsored by me, Lara Quie, in my spare time. So if you have ever got any value from these episodes, please, would you do me a big favour and subscribe to the show on Apple or Spotify?

[00:00:42] I would be even more grateful if you could share this episode with your friends and family and leave a rating and review so that the show can reach even more listeners. Thank you and on with the show. 

[00:00:54] Hello, and welcome to episode 45 of The Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie, and today we are very lucky to be doing a Chinese New Year special. And I'm here today with my friend, Ian Sharp from Hill Dickinson. So Ian, will you do a quick little intro of yourself, please? 

[00:01:17] Iain Sharp: Good afternoon, Lara.

[00:01:18] Happy New Year of the Dragon. Hopefully it starts well for you and brings you lots of prosperity. Thanks, Lara. Thanks for inviting me on today. Yes, my name is Iain Sharp. I am a International Trade and Dispute Resolution partner at Hill Dickinson.

[00:01:33] Currently in Singapore I've spent approximately 18 of my 25 years in practice in Asia. I trained in London, then was in Hong Kong for about 5 years. And then London and then my second tour of Asia. So I've been in Singapore for the last 14 years. I had a spell for about five years in house in a oil trader based in Switzerland, but running the operations, the legal function out here in Singapore. But yes delighted to join you today on this auspicious occasion and for this interesting topic. 

[00:02:05] Lara Quie: Fantastic. Yeah, I think, when we first met, we definitely bonded over the fact that we are both linguists and that we had planned to do languages in order to bring extra skills to the practice of law.

[00:02:20] So what do you think about these extra skills and alternative routes into law that there are these days? 

[00:02:28] Iain Sharp: Yeah, I think, I think I think we probably discovered this ourselves over the years and stuff is that actually having different strings to your bow is pretty useful.

[00:02:38] Naturally, being linguists then obviously communication is at the heart of what we do. And unless and until we're replaced by robots and AI, then obviously human communication is an important aspect of that. Yeah, so there's lots of different ways into law, I think. Probably, I've known people who did theology who became lawyers.

[00:02:57] I think we both collectively have friends, colleagues who were doctors who then decided that they wanted to become lawyers. So, there's many ways in rather than, I think, the hard and fast 3 year undergrad law degree, then go to law school. I think there's different ways in.

[00:03:11] And you bring different things to the party because the clients and businesses that we work with come from different walks of life. It's useful to give yourself, more ways to, to be able connect with clients, I think.

[00:03:22] And obviously for us, languages was a good one because as I said, it's at the heart of communication. So it's a good starting point, I think, with any relationship. 

[00:03:29] Lara Quie: That's a good point. It's very much about the communication and obviously languages is about communication, but you mentioned theology, I think, critical mindset, being able to look at large amounts of information and distill the important facts and question things.

[00:03:47] The highly skeptical mindset that lawyers need to adopt is very much a part of the, the lawyer personality. So thinking about your career progression and the kind of skills that you have needed to adopt and acquire along the way, what would you say are the skills that you have needed to become a successful lawyer and become a partner in particular?

[00:04:11] Iain Sharp: I think when most people look up. What is a given? I think, particularly if you ask clients, what are they selecting? In many ways, the kind of the hard academic technical ability is a given in many ways. So, a lot of it comes down to perhaps how do how do you distinguish yourself?

[00:04:27] How do you make yourself competitive? And there's a lot of elements to that because it's very difficult to do things well on your own. It's very difficult to build a practice or a department on your own. I think as you evolve beyond. just the technical side, as a more junior lawyer, when you're obviously bedding down your skill set and, getting used to drafting or pleading or or doing your basic advocacy or doing your timesheets and billing and things like that then you have to look at these a number of other skills and, we discussed this a little bit before, obviously a lot of those skills are soft skills and obviously a lot of those skills can take a bit of a backseat and part of that is like we said, is communicating. 

[00:05:05] How do you talk to your clients? How do you get across your opinions to them? How do you package your opinions? How do you communicate with people from different walks of life? Whether they're in the C suite or they're a shop floor manager or an upset parent where you were dealing with a family case or whatever, then you have to adjust your, you have to adjust your registry. You have to have the skill set to be able to communicate effectively. And I think so one of these things is the emotional side of things, the EQ, and then empathy as well.

[00:05:38] I think. whether it's with clients, whether it's a commercial dispute where a client feels very aggrieved and angry that their so called business partner has blown up this, wonderful relationship. How do you connect with them? And how do you steer them along the path to resolve the issue?

[00:05:55] Or similarly, within the workplace, how do you. How do you support your colleagues? How do you develop people? Because ultimately, I think at the heart of every practice, at the heart of every law firm or a legal team in house is people. That's the important thing.

[00:06:09] And humans are fallible. And, need to learn a more expansive skill set. I think it's something that quite often goes overlooked in whether it's in private practice or in-house as well. It's the soft skills sometimes are resigned to a little away day or maybe a couple of hours online or something, but they're so important on a day to day basis, really.

[00:06:30] And I think we saw an awful lot of that, particularly during COVID where people were really stretched in terms of, being able to connect because you couldn't do it in person, you had to do everything virtually on Zoom calls and other things. Yeah. 

[00:06:43] Lara Quie: Yeah, it's a really good point about the empathy side. I think that this is our greatest hope for making sure that lawyers remain human in the profession, because I think it is that humanity that clients are looking for. It is being able to tell another human being exactly what's going on, why they feel aggrieved and to get that sympathetic listening ear.

[00:07:07] And the listening skills as well. Call these things soft skills, but no, they are hard skills and they're essential skills. And the practice of law does of course involve the letter of the law and that is what law school is there to teach us. And essentially that is the bedrock of being a lawyer.

[00:07:27] However, I think if the curriculum could include more of the wider skills, it would be more helpful. However, there's only one or two years in law school that most people have, which is perhaps not long enough. And then you were at the mercy of whichever law firm you happen to be lucky enough to join for your training.

[00:07:48] So I think there's a huge range of levels of training and exposure that younger lawyers get as they come through. So thinking about the law school training that you got, and then the traineeship that you got. What have you done since then off your own bat to develop your skills?

[00:08:09] Iain Sharp: So I think, one thing I learned pretty early on, and I think I say this was a trainee, was to spend time with people. And whether that was the librarian back in the day when I was a trainee. Or the guys in the post room or whatever, because ultimately, there are a lot of different people that help make an organization run well.

[00:08:27] And you can learn a lot of stuff from people. As a trainee, I remember I spent a lot of time with our outdoor clerk, who took me all around the High Court, told me which clerks on which days to avoid who were particularly difficult with handing papers and stuff and all of that stuff was invaluable.

[00:08:43] You never get that in a textbook. Like you said, it can be a little bit luck of the draw in terms of where you are and stuff. One thing that I guess strongly advocate is finding mentors. If you can find them in your own firm, that's great. If you can't find them in your own firm, but there are people in the profession to help. Whether that's through your university or other organizations, whatever.

[00:09:05] I think that's quite important because having a sounding board or having, you know, I think positive role models, and this goes back, same thing with children as well, is having positive role models is really important. Being able, self awareness being aware of how you're behaving and how that may impact people, it's difficult, particularly, in the law, which is a pretty stressful profession. There's a lot of mental health strains on professionals.

[00:09:31] I would say it's only in recent years that I guess that firms have really started to pay attention to that. I think a lot of lawyers have found coping mechanisms and not all of them particularly healthy sometimes. So I think having that developing that support network and, networks generally I think is an important thing.

[00:09:49] But I think I guess I, I tried to find mentors. I tried to find more senior people I could talk to and try and learn from and I also found mentors, not directly in the law, but within, within maybe a sector that I was working in, who could give me insights in terms of how for me in trading how traders operate, what the environment is like, and that gave me a really useful insight to understand how can I, if I want to get this type of work how can I communicate and how can I access that and how can I deliver advice in a way that is going to be digestible and acceptable and accessible for people working in that environment because they don't want to read a 20 page treatise with 19th century cases, and that I think is the big difference.

[00:10:35] And I think you probably found it yourself as well as there's such a quantum leap from the academic stage to the practical stage and by and large, with a few exceptions, the practice of law is quite commercial and quite personal and a lot of problem solving in many respects has very little to do with the law.

[00:10:52] It's got to do with the solution. Yes, the law may underpin certain things but a lot of it is, we get far away from writing essays and case summaries and whatever. Yeah, but I think, at the heart of it, like we said it's people it's finding people that can help develop those skills, I think and, people that you can emulate a little bit.

[00:11:10] Lara Quie: Yeah, I thoroughly agree. Finding those people who are role models, who you admire and you think, wow, this person's really got it right. I love the way they run their practice. I love the way that they have some work life balance. I like the way they handle clients. I love the way that they are presenting at conferences or really establishing themselves as a thought leader and that sort of element of respect and aspiring to be like them one day. And as you say, it doesn't have to be necessarily a lawyer in your own firm. It can be anyone, and certainly with all of the technology available, we can look at people on YouTube.

[00:11:51] We can look at people on TikTok. We can see people on LinkedIn. So we don't need to limit ourselves to our direct environment. However, it is important to look out for those people and to think about what is it that we admire? Why would we aspire to be like them? What skills do they have? What is it about their personality or their charisma or, what is that sort of je ne sais quoi that they have that makes you want to be like them and going back to what you said about building those early relationships as a trainee. I remember I did exactly that. It was about befriending the night typist so that they would put my work first. It was going down to the microfiche room and being able to jump the queue because I'd built a good relationship with the team down there and the printers and all of these people.

[00:12:47] But I'm slightly concerned about young people in this work from home hybrid environment, where many of them are not coming into contact, particularly with support staff in the office environment. What would you recommend to people in that situation who still want to engage and want to learn to grow those sort of relationships?

[00:13:11] Iain Sharp: Yeah, I think that's a big challenge with the hybrid working style things, and, there is, I guess with lawyers, if you're working in a team, then we would have a call like this, but it's, but you're not going to do the same thing. Probably not so much with the secretaries or the finance team, because, they're pretty busy so that, that can be a little bit more of a challenge. 

[00:13:29] And I think that's where, I do think, particularly with the junior guys, I do think they need that face to face. They need that time. I also think, even with video calls and stuff as well as I think it is easier if you have a problem or you want to discuss something.

[00:13:45] And if you have a mentor, you have somebody that you can share things with. It is that little bit easier to do that personally, much as we like virtual coffees and tea or whatever, it's not the same rather than actually having somebody right in front of you. Yeah, and I think, I think that's been, I think that's generally always been a challenge in the profession is that people don't, a lot of junior lawyers and even senior lawyers, don't want to admit that they're fallible. 

[00:14:10] Don't want to admit that they struggle with things. Don't want to admit that, you know what, this is really right on the edge of my comfort zone. I would really feel happier if I had somebody to talk to about this. So it's a little bit of a stigma I think that we've got to try and get over in the profession.

[00:14:27] I think it will help the profession if we are a little bit more human, and we're a little bit more accepting of our, our limitations. And it's actually quite liberating to do it, to say, look, I, this is really a stretch. I need to, I need to speak to somebody. I need to work through this problem, whatever.

[00:14:45] I think particularly with junior lawyers, and you know this, I think particularly, in Asia as well, as I think it's much harder here as well, we haven't touched on this, but culturally as well is to accept that something is difficult and that it's a challenge is quite hard, I think, psychologically to tackle that.

[00:15:01] And I think, as a, as a partner or a manager and a mentor then that's where you have to, go that little bit further, I think because certainly Western cultures, I think it's nowadays a little bit easier to talk about things but certainly in Asia then I think it requires the mentor or the supervisor to work a little bit harder. You can't just say hey, if they want to talk about it, then they know where I am. It's how do you get people warmed up and operating in that level? You said, I think a lot of that was compounded with COVID and people working hybrid model and maybe not going into the office at all.

[00:15:33] So yeah it's a challenge. And like you said, I think there are good resources online and stuff. In terms of I guess. finding your plan, I think, the hardest thing is to just sit down one day and say, this is what I want to work on. I woke up and then I've got it all.

[00:15:47] I think, that in itself and I think this goes more generally to people development. There's a lot of work you need to do, I think to help somebody put together a plan and whether that's a business development plan or their own personal development plan. 

[00:16:00] And let's be honest here, very little time spent generally on it. In, in, in legal professions, maybe a little bit. It's almost something that has to be done, but we really don't want to spend an awful lot of time on it. But actually developing people is an ongoing process.

[00:16:14] If you're doing it properly, then it's worth it. Yes, you work the plan, but what you want to achieve by the end of the year is that you've exceeded those goals. But that requires investment. It's not, I'm going to switch this on the 1st of January and then I'll have a look on the 1st of June and then I'll have another look on the 1st of December, you know, mentoring is a lot, this as well and coaching.

[00:16:35] It's an ongoing process. It's not a dip in and dip out. So I think that becomes very hard. for the mentee, I think to feel that they're getting somewhere and they do need that constant interaction, I think to feel that they are on the right track, that they are holding themselves accountable, that they can check in and say, is this right? I knew I was going to do this, but whatever, you need that support and validation, I think. 

[00:16:57] Lara Quie: Yeah, that's absolutely right. And I'm thinking that actually most people are basically at the mercy of whether their firm has a good structure in place in terms of, for example, having a business development team who fit you into a structure so that they do come and ask you about business development goals, career goals, et cetera.

[00:17:19] But I think very few firms are actually offering that on a regular basis. And then you have to look at your manager and is your manager somebody who thinks in that way and is structured and organized and helps you to think longer term and plot some short term goals and think about where you want to be in one year's time, two years time, three years time.

[00:17:41] I think very few people in the law have the luxury of that time and that conversation. And so that's why, as you say, it's so valuable to have those mentors who really are thinking about you and your future and planning, because I think that there's so much we can do in terms of taking control of our own career to think about what skill might we need.

[00:18:06] Or perhaps there's an industry we want to get more exposure to. So how would we orchestrate that for ourselves? But thinking about, your career and your focus on commodities and those traders that you mentioned, the commercial side, you said that there's so much invaluable information you picked up from those basically casual conversations with them down the pub, for example, where you say, " how does this work? And what's the commercial reality for you? And why would you do this?" Et cetera. What do you suggest for lawyers thinking about an industry and getting exposure and where do they find this commercial information?

[00:18:46] Iain Sharp: Yeah, I think, this is one of the funny things and is you're not always going to get the information from a lawyer. So I had a discussion with somebody the other day and they said, " where do you get most of your work from?"

[00:18:57] And I said, "I don't get it from lawyers." So part of it is understanding if I'm interested in commodities or if I'm interested in media or, entertainment law or whatever, right? If you think about who your clients are not the lawyers, right?

[00:19:11] Your clients are the business. And ultimately you are, we're a service industry, we're selling services. to businesses or individuals, but they're looking for something quite specific. How do you learn the specifics? And the only way to learn the specifics is, If you've got to spend time with the people that are doing the business, right?

[00:19:28] For commodities, there's an awful lot of stuff. So you can, I, I was lucky I got introduced to, oil and gas and trading when I was a trainee. I was seconded to Shell for 6 months. So I worked with the in house legal team, but was interfacing directly with product teams to draft agreements for particular products or thermoplastics or whatever in particular jurisdictions.

[00:19:51] So you're working directly to get that product to that market. So already you're putting it in a real context, rather than a kind of one step away. So I think that was beneficial to do that. There's. There's a lot of information online. There's a lot of books written on commodities and trading, whatever.

[00:20:09] I've always we're linguists, so I'm a pathological reader. I read all the time. So I'm always reading whether it's online or books or whatever. Invest in yourself, invest the time. We're all super busy, but we can make the time and part of this is time management, I think is investing in yourself using your time wisely, at lunchtime, you don't always have to go out and have a massive lunch, you can bring in your lunch or buy lunch, whatever, but maybe look at a pod, do a podcast.

[00:20:37] I, I look at webinars. I one of the days I was going in on the bus to work and I watched a AI and the Law podcast from Oxford University. It was like 25 minutes, quite interesting. So there's a lot of there's a lot more stuff that's easily accessible that doesn't require us back in my day to physically go to a library and then pull off the shelf.

[00:20:57] Yeah yeah, I think it's more accessible, whether it's TED Talks. Or, if you feel you're, nervous and want to improve your public speaking, whatever is find little ways that you can do that. You don't need to jump to, okay, you're going to speak in front of a conference with 300 people. You could do a webinar within your firm. You could do a webinar with maybe three of your friends. And I suggested this to trainees and junior lawyers, " why don't you come up with a webinar idea yourselves and split the work between you?"

[00:21:28] So that nobody is having to shoulder everything, but you all get something from it. And then say that in itself becomes a project because they have to come up with the topic, they have to work collaboratively, they have to divide it up. They have to manage the time and, and try and make it interesting and entertaining.

[00:21:42] Yeah, I think do the homework, do the research. There are, I mean, certainly in Asia, there are a lot of free events. There's a lot of different groups. I think for young lawyers, particularly if you're interested in arbitration or shipping or commodities or women in law or whatever there's growing communities.

[00:22:03] So there's a lot of accessible stuff and there's a lot of really kind, helpful, experienced people who are actively engaged in those communities. So I think it's. It's an awful lot easier than probably it has been in the past, but the part of it, is within your organization or is hopefully you have somebody who can give you a little bit of a steer.

[00:22:24] I think that can be the difficult thing if your organization is not geared up that way. But then that's why I think looking at networks and maybe LinkedIn or whatever is there's a lot of information there. There's a lot of groups that you can join. You can get interesting feeds on subject areas that you're interested in. It's easier than it used to be, I think. 

[00:22:43] Lara Quie: Would you say that there is a current trend towards niching down? I've noticed a lot of boutique firms springing up and I've also noticed that probably the most successful rainmakers as it were do tend to have a very specialist area.

[00:23:01] And so if you focus on perhaps a niche practice or a special industry, that will mean that finding those communities will be easier. So how should a younger lawyer identify perhaps an industry or a niche practice area? 

[00:23:19] Iain Sharp: I think we've talked about this a little bit before. Same thing about going to university, right? Um, Ultimately you'll do better with what you're really interested in. In many ways, I used to think the training contract, your four seats is like doing A levels, right? You do four A levels and then you go what am I going to do after my A levels, right?

[00:23:36] So hopefully you've seen enough things within your training contract to go, actually, I kind of like this or like that, but nothing is perfect. I trained at Boodle Hatfield. I trained at a very old firm that was founded in the 18th century.

[00:23:49] I was lucky. I did a secondment to Shell, which kind of gave me access to more international trade and that kind of work. Um, yeah, it's, yeah it's difficult. I would say with junior lawyers is. I would hesitate against over specializing because I think you've got to find something that you have a passion for.

[00:24:09] Traditionally, it's always been a little bit of, am I more comfortable on the commercial kind of side of things? Or do I like arguing for a living and then use slightly more terms than dispute resolution? And it is, I think. Over the years, I've seen that. I think there is, there are personality types that lend themselves, I think, to the more generic types of practice, but in terms of the subject matter, I think, you've got to try and get yourself exposure.

[00:24:33] And. And give yourself some flexibility, particularly when you're younger. I think, in many ways, you want to try lots of different things if you can because the worst thing is to over specialize and then find out you're miserable and you just don't want to do it. Yeah is, you can maybe look at, a few things without being super narrow, say within, say within, even within say, international trade and shipping.

[00:24:54] There are many subsets to international trade and shipping. You may find that your passion is ship finance or sale and purchase, or you may wake up every morning and go, I just want to do charter party disputes every day. That's it until I retire. Or you may, like me, be caught between two things where I like doing the commercial side.

[00:25:13] I like helping do deals and putting stuff together, but I also like the dispute resolution side. So then for me, I've had to. That's in tandem. And like you said, part of that, then, I guess for my journey was understanding how can I be useful to a client? How can I make myself a more attractive proposition as a service provider?

[00:25:33] Selling, I always say selling disputes is misery, right? Nobody goes in and say, "Hey, lovely to see you. Please can you give me all your misery? And here's a big bill." It's a lot easier to say, " why don't I help you do your deal?" Or let's put your contracts together so you can make some money rather than lose it for change.

[00:25:49] So there's different ways to look at things, but that's like we said, it comes back to the same thing is, is understanding what the business is about, because I think as lawyers, we have a perception as to what clients want and how they want it delivered.

[00:26:01] But unless you ask them, you're not going to know. And I think with junior lawyers as well, it's because everything, everything goes through filters. So the junior lawyer, you will filter through the senior associate or the partner, and maybe that partner is filtered through a head of legal in the client organization.

[00:26:16] And then it's, so in many ways you're, you can be quite a long way away from what is actually needed by the business, right? So that's why I think it's quite useful to understand, look, if, if you are a chap with widgets in Lancashire, whatever, and you want to get this product to market well, how do you do it?

[00:26:32] And what are his challenges? So part of it is. Is how do you put yourselves in the shoes of the client? The best way to do that is to try and get those conversations. So then this is, you know, I guess this is a little bit, we were talking about the peer group as well is obviously, lawyers we like to congregate together, particularly expat lawyers. But it's, I've always said it's useful to to build your network beyond what you do in your own profession. Because you then have perspectives, and then actually you can learn, same thing as you can learn from your peers, you can learn from your friends, if you've got friends who are in manufacturing or work for tech or Google or whatever, and you have a passion for that type of law or whatever, then automatically you've got a root in, plus you've also got one of your friends who can tell you in real term what it's really like rather than perhaps the glamorous side that you may see on advertising on a billboard or whatever. so.

[00:27:23] Lara Quie: Yeah, so what it sounds to me is you need a curious mind and you need to be completely self driven. So you need to be there asking the right questions. So for example, when it comes to a deal that you're working on or a dispute, you need to ask the person in charge of that matter. What are the commercial reasons for this?

[00:27:45] What is the big picture? I mean, certainly as a junior lawyer, you're often given small bits and pieces and you don't necessarily understand how your work fits into the big picture or what are the commercial drivers, because you're not going to see those from the papers that you work on. And so I think that is very much up to you, you as the junior need to be asking those questions, such as.

[00:28:09] We've just been given this new piece of work. Could you tell me a bit more about the client? Why is the client doing this? What is the commercial rationale for this? Or why has this dispute happened? What's the situation? What was the contract? And what's the reason for you know, certain clauses, but nobody's going to volunteer this information because everybody is very urgent and everything needs to be done quickly. So I think that you need to take it upon yourself, don't you? To really ask those questions and be seeking out those people who are going to have those commercial answers. So those clients and I think many lawyers working on transactions often have a moment where they might find themselves in direct contact with the client and able to say, " I'm working on this transaction. It's very interesting. Could you tell me a bit more about it? What could you share with me that I could learn from this experience?"

[00:29:07] And most people would love to tell you because they are usually passionate about their work and they'll be very interested and happy to see that you're interested too and that you want to be a good commercial lawyer. And I think you need to have that mindset for yourself though, right? I mean, certainly sounds like that's what you had, Iain, and you really went out of your way to find mentors, speak to clients and be very proactive. So it's that proactive nature in terms of going out there to get the information that you need doing the self study, the reading.

[00:29:42] And you mentioned productivity. Let's talk a little bit about productivity. So lawyers often have a daily billable target, but what about the concept of you being your number one client and you selling yourself one hour a day to advance yourself and your career. What sort of things do you do to develop yourself in terms of your knowledge and your career and your skills?

[00:30:07] Iain Sharp: Yeah, so I pretty much read every day. And I think most commercial law firms nowadays, we have a lot of knowledge flowing through us. Some training, but just in terms of your subject matters or whatever. So I think you've got to constantly be, we have to be on top of developments.

[00:30:24] I think particularly in international trade, then, it's a movable feast, right? The position today may have changed from last week. So I think you've got to constantly get on top. A lot of this is about habits, I think, and this is what I, say with, junior lawyers and mentees that I have from undergraduate level, as I said I would say to them, try and develop those good habits. If you get into the habits, same thing, time recording, get into good habits, right?

[00:30:48] If you do it on the day, then, it takes the pain away. So the same thing, like you said with self development and developing skills is, work out, it doesn't have to be a very detailed plan, but work out. Well, I want to, I want to understand more about oil trading.

[00:31:04] I want to understand about derivatives. Where can I read up about that? You do your homework and then, then maybe, say, okay, there's a couple of talks I found on YouTube or there's a TED talk or something. You can write a to do list, make yourself accountable and say, okay, this month I want to do that.

[00:31:22] I want to read this chapter in this book. I want to talk to a partner about how ISDAs work or whatever. Or I want to, I want to get on top of developments in international arbitration. I want to know what the white paper is going through the parliament in the UK at the moment. So I think you've got to set your kind of objectives a little bit and whether that's law and subject matter learning, or like we said, the soft skills.

[00:31:50] I want to write better, I, I feel that, if you think I need to learn how to write more concisely, I feel my language is a little bit weak here, whatever then there's so much resource. There's so many different courses. There's so many different things online and actually pretty affordable as well, where you can dip into this for 20 minutes a day or something, or even less, maybe an hour a week and work on those skills, but I think, it's in many ways, like we said it's self development, but you need to reflect. And I think the problem, that we've always had with the profession is sometimes you feel there's little time for self reflection. And I think it's a good thing, both professionally, but also personally in terms of doing what makes you happy. How do you balance the fun? If you are doing something personally that helps balance stuff up. Then it will have a positive impact in your work as well.

[00:32:40] So I think, as lawyers, we can be very head down, work hard, do the hours. I want to get my bonus or whatever. And you can lose sight of what makes you happy? And this is one thing that we've seen quite a lot of in the last few years. I think particularly in Asia as well, you've seen an awful lot of young lawyers coming out of the law, leaving it because they, may have gone into the law for one reason because they perceived it as a particular type of career.

[00:33:04] They then probably had perhaps had an experience that wasn't entirely positive and perhaps didn't have access to a mentor or somebody to help them through, some of the struggles and then they've just gone to the exit because it's just easier to do that.

[00:33:20] And I'm just going to do something else. So I think we need to be mindful of that. And I think certainly, at my, where I'm in my career I'm aware of what my journey is, but my journey is not the same as, an undergrad or whatever. So part of this is, the same thing is I guess I do the same thing with junior lawyers as I do with clients.

[00:33:39] I try and, how do you build the relationship? How do you get to know them? And the same, and the same thing I think as a mentor is the advice or the guidance I may give one junior lawyer or potential lawyer is very different than I'll give another one, because it needs to be fit for purpose.

[00:33:54] It needs to be right for the individual. It's not, it's not, copy paste. There you go. And I think part of this is Part of this comes down to those, the empathy and those skills. So it's things that you can apply, I say this to juniors, it's things that you can apply on a daily basis.

[00:34:10] If I have lawyers who are moving up to senior associate or legal director, I will say to them is, look, you may not be running a team but there are ways that you can be demonstrating those behaviors. How are you dealing with the more junior guys? How are you dealing with the trainees?

[00:34:24] How are you dealing with the secretaries if they're stressed and hair on fire and trying to cope with other things? Is there a way that you can make things easier? Is there a way that you can help streamline processes or whatever, package things in a particular way, manage things a little bit better in terms of time so that they don't feel so pressurized or whatever.

[00:34:41] So it's, I think it's that flexibility. But you have to learn the behaviours early, I think. I think that's the difficult thing is like we said is it's probably still not highlighted upon that much. Because ultimately, we're still, we are still ruled by the billable hour.

[00:34:56] But it's so important. And I think even more important, I think certainly in a post COVID world, I think that being personable, what it means to be a modern lawyer, what it means to manage and encourage and develop people because personally, for me, I've, we've talked about this. It's very satisfying to see people that you work with developing and achieve things. You know, I'm always really happy when I see trainees I worked with make Partner.

[00:35:19] It's great. I'm usually one of the first on LinkedIn to say, Hey, this is great. It's nice to see that. I think you, you can take pride in things that aren't just billable targets. So.

[00:35:28] Lara Quie: Yeah. Well, you touched on the subject of retention, which particularly in Asia, I would say locally that is what many of the Singaporean lawyers are talking about. It's very difficult to retain the younger generations because their expectations of what a job should be and what life looks like are very different to our generation and also because of COVID as well. So I do think it was exacerbated quite considerably by the fact that people recognize life is short.

[00:35:58] There's no point living for tomorrow because tomorrow might not come. So how do you make the best of today and live your best life during your work and during your time off. So many young people are really thinking about what does their life look like? And then they look at the people in the senior positions slaving away crazy hours running around like headless chickens

[00:36:20] and I think they look at that and they think, gosh if I stay here, that's what my life is going to look like in 20 years. Do I really want to be like that? As opposed to finding ways to manage things, I think a lot of it is about how organized the people are for whom you work. As you said, what processes, how can you help people?

[00:36:43] It's simple things like, changing the subject line in every email to a short summary that actually updates every time so that you can find things very easily having very organized folders in your inbox and keeping on top of things. I think many senior lawyers value the fact that their juniors keep things organized and also keep them on track.

[00:37:06] So by managing the process, especially when it comes to litigation, which is full of deadlines. So being organized, anticipating what's coming, but being proactive. And then you mentioned about the more senior lawyers as they advance, how can they start to adopt the mindset of a more senior lawyer?

[00:37:23] So, adopting a partner mindset. So as a partner, what is your job? It's managing other people. It's encouraging other people, supporting others, developing them, coaching them. So how can you do that with the others in your team? Because there's almost always someone more junior to you.

[00:37:40] So you can help that person. You can work collaboratively with your team. You can upwardly manage as well, right? So reverse mentoring is very helpful. So for example, there are so many senior lawyers struggling with retention and actually struggling with their behavior, struggling to engage younger lawyers.

[00:38:00] It's helpful for you if you notice what they're struggling with and actually say that person over there, they really value the fact that they want to go to the gym at 5 PM. What could we do as a team? to make sure that we facilitate that because otherwise that person will quit and go and that would be a real shame.

[00:38:20] So I think we need to think more creatively about what a team looks like and how we can do our best to ensure these people stay. Because it is very easy to quit these days. There are too many choices. Law definitely is hard. And if you have to be very committed to it, I think these days, because young people are not so motivated by the money.

[00:38:45] And so in the olden days, where we had a significant difference between a professional career: lawyer, doctor, and the person in sort of an average, say, job. But these days you can be a YouTuber and be a millionaire. And that's a bit more exciting. So, 

[00:39:02] Iain Sharp: So should we go? Yeah.

[00:39:04] Lara Quie: This is our attempt to try and be a bit more interesting and media savvy, isn't it, Iain? And, being on a podcast. But it is like that, it is about all of those different aspects. And I really think that everyone has a role to play as part of the legal profession.

[00:39:22] I would also say that lawyers need to think carefully about how they treat support staff. They should not be hierarchical and assume that just because they had the luck of being born in a certain household that meant that perhaps they got exposure to education and then, people who were professionals who encouraged them or had great mentors or whatever.

[00:39:45] But my belief personally, is that a lot of it is to do with luck, where you're born, et cetera. And then up to you as well, how you harness that, and then you work hard and then you do the work. But a lot of it is really born with a silver spoon in your mouth and then patting yourself on the back for being a lawyer.

[00:40:05] It doesn't mean you're better than anyone else. So I think it's really important for people to remain humble because so many people are very status driven and it's very unhelpful. 

[00:40:14] Iain Sharp: Yeah, and I think you know you were saying performance and stuff as well as I think you know, what is what does a high performing team look like? And what are the elements? And I think a high performing team is, one that gets results, but one that is cohesive and one that likes working together. We've not come on to this but it's, but it is part of, shall we say environment. How do you create, how do you create the right environment?

[00:40:38] And a lot of that is, is is how you behave towards people. You can be the smartest, highest billing lawyer, but if you treat people terribly, if you are hard, uncompromising show no empathy then people are not going to want to work for you. That's the harsh reality. You may pay the salary, you may bash them over the head, but you will never get the best out of them.

[00:41:06] And even if they may be doing certain hours, the heart isn't in it. I think, somebody said to me, what do you like about kind of doing things? I said, " I like running teams. I like managing people." If you're all in it together you can be working really hard, but it doesn't feel hard because you can still have fun with the law.

[00:41:27] That's what I said. You can start doing discovery but you can find a way to keep things entertaining, right? You're all in it together sort of thing. So your achievement is collective, right? And I think, I think some people get far away from that. I've had discussions many times over the years about management, and I've got friends and colleagues who say, I hate managing. I don't like managing. And the truth is, it's not for everyone. But the problem is this, I think, in the legal profession, if you are a partner, you have to manage. That's part of the job. And if we probably spent more time understanding and working on those skills, we would probably have better teams.

[00:42:05] We will probably have a greater degree of job satisfaction. We would have associates feeling a more fulfilled, even though they're putting in the long hours, they would feel I'm getting something out of this. It's not just about the money because I feel that I'm appreciated.

[00:42:21] How do I feel valued? Little things like you said with support staff, thank you, please. All the basic stuff we learned as kids goes a long way, right? Just checking in with people. I like to do it every day. If I go into the office. Go and see secretary's accounts. Just say, how are you?

[00:42:37] How was your weekend? People like people being personable. It's a such a small thing. But it does make a big difference. I think. And like we said, I think, we are a people business. We're only as good as the people. We're only as good as the amount of time and effort we invest in people.

[00:42:51] The best teams are the ones that people feel valued and appreciated in. And that's because there's investment both sides of the equation, right? You know, it's hard to expect people to pull an all nighter if you bash them over the head all the time. Yeah. 

[00:43:05] Lara Quie: Yeah, that's a really good point. And for me, I really think that the most successful lawyers are those ones who can move as a team. You hear about a whole group moving to a new firm, and then you might see some associates and say, "Oh, you've all moved to such and such." And they're like, yeah the leader, the leader was moving.

[00:43:26] And then you hear about the entire department going. So that includes all the secretaries and everybody. And it's that loyalty, that sense of genuine cohesion and the affection that each person has for each other. But it is about that management. And it's the fact that having those people and being able to bring them with you actually is the sign of success.

[00:43:51] Because loyalty is something that you have to earn and definitely legal is difficult because as you said, as a partner, you now have to have all of these multiple skills. I think when you're a junior lawyer, you go in and you think it's all about the law. You think, oh, I have to really learn the law.

[00:44:10] It's all about the academics. Am I clever enough? Is my client going to receive excellent advice? And then you suddenly learn no. Of course that is there, but that is the fundamental. And then what are the extra things that will make you successful? It is the E.Q. So the skills in terms of building those relationships, inspiring loyalty, being able to appreciate people in your team, coach them, mentor them, train them. The ability to delegate, the ability to inspire, to carry them along, energize, be strategic about everything. And you mentioned the affability factor. That is the number one thing. Yeah. You have to be a nice person.

[00:44:52] You're not going to get any loyalty if you're just horrible, right? So you have to be genuinely nice. So someone will say, "I'm going with that partner." Oh, why? Because I love working with them. I can't imagine not being with them. And that for me is a successful career. What do you define as career success for the modern lawyer?

[00:45:15] Iain Sharp: Oh, I don't think it's about numbers, to be honest. Look, it's an element. I think, ultimately, you want to be able to provide for your family or whatever to have the life you want. But as a lawyer, for me personally, I think I think this goes back to being a linguist and stuff as well is for me, it's always, you're always learning, right?

[00:45:34] I don't, I don't think I've never felt I know enough now I'm going to stop learning. The interesting thing about the law is it's constantly changing, right? And I think it's fulfilling to learn new things. So I look back on, where I started, then I go, Oh, wow, I now do all of this stuff, but this is what I learned and whether it was working in Hong Kong or back in London or in house, which gave me a whole new perspective on things.

[00:45:59] It's that learning journey. So that's the satisfying thing. But like I said to you, I think certainly at my stage in my career, it's, a lot of it is about giving back. I think it has to be. I think when you're, when you've been a partner for a while, it has to be about what are you putting back into this.

[00:46:14] Because your legacy is not going to be, it's the same thing with children, your legacy is not how much you earn, right? Nobody cares. From one year to the next it's irrelevant, right? It's a statistic. It's more about what you've developed and I think if you, for me personally, I always think my legal legacy more is about the people.

[00:46:33] So, for me personally, if I can look back and say, Hey, I work with these guys and I've seen them flourish and develop. Like I said, it's like with kids, right? In many ways, they're like my little legal babies. So I get a lot of satisfaction over seeing junior lawyers or trainees or other people developing their careers and playing your little part in that, right?

[00:46:54] That that's a very deeply satisfying thing. And the important thing is not something you can put a dollar value, which means it's so much more valuable. Yeah. And of course, if you've got reported cases, those are quite nice as well, but yes. 

[00:47:07] Lara Quie: That's the cherry on the cake, isn't it?

[00:47:09] So yes, so let's wrap up on this, Iain. What would be your final word of advice for a junior lawyer? 

[00:47:17] Iain Sharp: Okay. Top tips. Surround yourself with good role models, find mentors, look far and wide believe in yourself and your own self development. This is your journey.

[00:47:27] This is your career. Nobody else's, right? It's not the partner's career. It's yours. And keep learning. I think, that's the main thing is there's. Your, your journey is not yet written. It's what you make of it. So I think that's the thing is, it's a learning journey.

[00:47:40] As long as you, like you said, as long as you keep that open, inquiring mind, it can take you in so many different places. And I think. That's a good coping mechanism as well when things can be difficult. As long as you, you've got that ability to keep inquiring and reach out and find help. You will find it. There's good people there that will help you on your journey. So.

[00:48:03] Lara Quie: Very wise words. So thank you, Iain. If people want to reach out to you, where would be the best place for them to find you? 

[00:48:11] Iain Sharp: I'm on LinkedIn, so they can drop me a DM on LinkedIn. I'm always happy to connect with people and whether that's practitioners or students as well. I've been mentoring for a good few years now, so I'm always happy to help people who are interested in the legal profession if they want to to get some perspectives. 

[00:48:28] Lara Quie: Thank you so much for your time today, Iain. 

[00:48:30] Iain Sharp: Thanks a lot, Lara. Always a pleasure. Thank you.

[00:48:32] Lara Quie: Thank you for joining us on the Legal Genie Podcast. We hope today's episode has granted your wishes for legal career insights and wisdom. Don't forget to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform to be first, to be notified of the latest episodes. Please consider leaving us a review on Apple podcasts and sharing it with other legal eagles. Your support helps the show to reach a much wider audience. Until next time, have a magical week ahead.