Brave Moves: Norah Durrant on Owning Your Legal Career - Episode 51

In Episode 51, The Legal Genie, Lara Quie, is in conversation with Norah Durrant, a former employment lawyer turned specialist recruiter focused on helping senior female lawyers take the next bold step in their careers.

Norah speaks candidly about what it really takes to make partner in the legal world and why it’s okay if you have a squiggly career path.

She talks about the invisible barriers women still face at the top, and why sponsorship, not just mentorship, is the real game-changer. 

Norah also shares what she’s seeing in the market today as a recruiter: why many senior women are reevaluating their futures, and how they can take back control of their careers - whether that’s inside or outside traditional legal practice.

With a refreshing mix of honesty and warmth, Norah reminds us that success in law isn’t just about titles - it’s about being brave and having self-belief. 

You will learn these key takeaways:

• The crucial difference between mentors and sponsors – Norah explains how mentors offer guidance but sponsors actively advocate for your progression, and without one, many women get overlooked.
• Not everyone who deserves to be partner makes it - and that’s not a reflection of ability - Norah speaks frankly about how firm politics, visibility, and support networks affect who rises through the ranks.
• The partner track can be opaque and unspoken – Many lawyers are left guessing what is expected of them. Norah highlights the importance of demystifying the process.
• Why building your book of business and LinkedIn visibility is so important.

🎧 Tune in for a conversation full of clarity, courage, and career wisdom - perfect for senior women ready to own their next chapter in law.

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to episode 51 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me your host, Lara Quie. And today I'm sitting down with one of London's leading recruiters of female lawyers. Norah Durrant is a former employment lawyer turned recruiter who supports law firms looking for more diversity amongst their workforce, particularly at partner level. With 15 years in high level strategic recruitment, Norah specializes in guiding senior women to their next partner level role. Norah is also the founder of Female Counsel, a thriving community of over 800 women in law dedicated to fostering connection, mentorship, and growth. It's great to have you here today, Norah, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you Lara. It's lovely to be here and thank you for inviting me along. You're very welcome. Let's start with your legal career and how you ended up in employment law, and then your move into recruitment. So, yes, it seems so long ago now. So I was an employment lawyer many, many moons ago. And I loved it. I really enjoyed the team I worked with. I loved the work, I loved the clients, but it did become increasingly difficult as I became a mother. I had two children. My husband was a corporate lawyer looking for partnership. And I just found it really difficult back then to juggle everything. And one of my friends who was a banking lawyer suggested that I could be a really good recruiter hand on heart. I wasn't interested in it at all, but she persuaded me to go along and have a chat with someone. And I did. And I think like lots of working lawyers, lots of working mums, I recognized how difficult it was, and so that's why I made the move to recruitment. Worked in a London boutique for 15 years. Loved it, really enjoyed it. And then just around the time of Covid decided to go alone and to do something a little bit different. Well, it's quite a journey and I think what most lawyers appreciate most is the fact that being a lawyer yourself, you understand exactly what it's like in a law firm. The pressures, how the path to partnership actually works, the politics, all of those things. It's a very difficult area. So let's think about all these senior lawyers, they're senior associates, legal directors, people trying to move up. What are you seeing in that market right now and what kind of advice have you got for people in terms of how they position themselves? So I think, and I use this analogy all the time, I can remember when I was a junior lawyer, I used to think that once you got to partnership. It was easy. You just sat back, you waited for the work to come in, you delegated the work, and life was good. And of course the reality of that is very, very different. And so what I'm seeing is lots of women who are in the law who are really thinking, do I want partnership? Is it something that I really want? Because they can see. The reality of partnership and it is not straightforward whatsoever. So I'm seeing lots of women who are thinking about that. And then I'm seeing women who are partners and the difficulty that they face because it is, it's. Relentless. It's absolutely relentless. And I had a chat with someone yesterday, of course. We're starting the new financial year again. Lots of people have had year end, and I spoke to a couple of women yesterday who said the clock's starting all over again. They've had a great year last year, brought in lots and lots of work, great year financially, but the clock starts all over again and you almost have to prove yourself all over again. So I think what I'm seeing is women who are thinking about partnership are thinking about it really, really carefully and are wondering, is it what I truly want? And I guide them on that and help to advise them on that. That's really interesting and I think you are so right about that clock starting again. It can be very disheartening if you've had a really good year the previous year and then that clock resets to zero and you're only as good as the current year that you are in. And that's, so hard. It's exactly the same in consulting where I'm working right now and also the path to partnership is it seems to be getting harder and harder every year. If I think of my cohort, there were 30 of us in my intake. There's probably about two or three lawyers, male and female, who are still lawyers these days. And many, of us, like you and me, have come out of it mainly for family reasons, but also because for our generation it wasn't as flexible as it is now. So I definitely think it's different to my time. But, we've seen a lot of announcements, lots of people joyously announcing that they've become a partner. And, of course, all the firms announcing their latest promotions round. But it's also really hard time for those who didn't make it this year. And so you must be having a lot of conversations with people. In fact, you'll probably be your busiest ever at this time of year, because those people who weren't made up are now thinking, right, do I stay here? Because they've made promises. They said I would make it this year. I haven't What are you going to be advising these mostly female lawyers? What should they be thinking of right now? Mm-hmm. And absolutely and congratulations to all those newly promoted partners. It's a huge achievement, a massive achievement. And my heart at this time of year, my heart always does go out to those who haven't made it. And it is difficult. It is a really difficult time for some people and we can't take away from that. I think there's lots of advice you can give, but the main thing is to really sit down with your supervisor or your sponsoring partner and just work out why you didn't get it. Why you were passed over this year, and have that honest conversation. And if you are given constructive feedback that you can take away from that and work with it and work with your sponsoring partner, absolutely fantastic. But sometimes what I see is when female lawyers sit down with their bosses to discuss why they didn't get partnership this year. Sometimes no tangible evidence is given. And I've spoken to a number of lawyers over the years who've just been told, it's not your time. Try again next year. And that's really difficult. How are you supposed to work with that? What are you supposed to change if you're told it's not your time? That's so demoralizing, and I think that's when women then start to think. Okay, is this the right platform for me? I feel like I've done everything I should do. I've ticked all the boxes as it were, what is holding me back? And sometimes they will think this just isn't the right platform for me. So it's having those honest conversations is so important and having them through the process. I always say to my female candidates that you might know that you're looking for promotion or in your heart of heart's what you're looking for, but have you told everyone? Have you told your sponsoring partners that's what you want? Because I think we as women tend to, not only do we hide our light under a bushel, but we also think that people will just spontaneously realize what it is we're looking for. So we have to make it really clear that this is the path that we want to go down. And I know we'll come onto this later. That whole issue of sponsorship is so, so important, and let's not confuse that with mentorship, which is very, very different. Sponsorship is key. Yes. So talking about sponsorship and the difference between mentorship, would you like to share what you actually see as sponsorship and how women can find those people? Yeah, and it's really difficult. So if we look at mentorship, first of all, mentorship is great and it's so important, and you can have mentors within your organization or externally. And actually with Female Counsel, I set up a mentorship group last year, which has been really, really popular and really useful to just bounce ideas of women who are at different firms. Just to get some perspective. Sponsorship is very, very different. That is with a key decision maker. Hopefully within your department, but within your firm, it's someone who is going to talk about you when you're not in the room. Someone who is going to sing your praises. Someone who's in the boardroom and these conversations are taking place is going to say, you need to think about Lara, you need to think about Norah. Someone who knows you really well. It's someone who is... they're not always going to praise you. It's constructive feedback. But someone who you honestly have that relationship who will give you that constructive feedback and advise you what to do. But it's really that person who will talk about you when you're not there and really, really try and help you with your career. And I think we as women are probably, we're very, very good. We're really good at surrounding ourselves with mentors, but it's taking that next step and reaching out to the decision makers in law firms, which invariably are men. Invariably are men, but having the confidence to reach out to them and say, look, I need your support. Very good advice. And you mentioned that obviously at the higher levels of many of these law firms, they are mostly men. But actually when it comes to sponsorship, there is research showing that for a female to have a male sponsor actually is more powerful. So can you tell me a little bit about choosing if you only have one sponsor choosing a male sponsor, a female sponsor, and what the differences might be? I think it's, yeah, you could have a really, really good influential female sponsor. Absolutely. But I think it's. It's the male allyship. It's pulling into that, isn't it? And it's working out. Every case is completely different, but it's working out in your own particular firm who is going to be the most powerful person who can then give you that sponsorship that you need. And you're absolutely right in law firms. It probably might be a man, it might be a man. And that whole note around male allyship is crucial and it's crucial now more than ever when we are looking at diversity, equity, and inclusion and what's happening to that. Yes, there's a lot of change there. But there are a lot of particularly boutique firms that are now female led. And in fact, I saw a photo of a firm yesterday where there were about 20 lawyers and I think only two of whom were men. That was quite interesting to see that. So things are changing. But in that space where you have a lot of females together, we all know, and we should acknowledge the fact that there are some women, some senior women who pull the ladder up after them. So what should senior lawyers do if they notice that kind of behavior amongst some of the partners? They shouldn't choose people like that, obviously, to be their sponsor. Absolutely, absolutely. And, and I think we've probably all seen examples of that or heard of examples of that where very senior women have had it difficult themselves, have had it really, really difficult and they've had to work really hard to climb that ladder. And some of them, them may think. I've had it difficult, so you're going to have it difficult as well. I think if you are a junior lawyer and you're facing that, you just step away from that individual, move away from that individual 'cause they are not going to help your career. They are not going to be the effective sponsor that you need. It's at that stage that you then need to find a better sponsor male or female. But please do step away from the individual who is going to be the blocker. And I know the photograph that you're talking about. I saw it on LinkedIn yesterday and my heart sang with joy when I saw it. So congratulations to that firm. It's, it's such a good news story. It is. And I think when we think about the number of young lawyers going into the profession, predominantly female these days. Yeah. Yeah. And then you look at the demographics and leadership and actually you still see, you've got that pyramid it is very difficult for women just because of the way that lifestyle means that once you have a family, it can be very, very difficult to juggle everything. And also the concept that we're all fed around, you can have it all. And many successful women say you can have it all, maybe just not all at once. And I think when I think of my career over time and how there are so many different

phases: 13:21

the baby phase, the toddler phase, the junior school phase, the senior school phase, A levels, et cetera, university. It all changes. So women shouldn't write off their career too early thinking, I can't cope now because yes, you might be having a real tough time right now and it might just mean that you haven't got the right support in place, but it doesn't mean that it's always going to be like this. And in fact, once your children are in school, and certainly when they're older and it actually goes by really, really quickly. I think that some of the lawyers that I speak to who are say mid to late thirties, and they still haven't started their family, but they're really thinking about, should I do it? Should I wait until I'm a partner? What is your advice on starting a family? Oh my word. It's so difficult and it's such a personal decision. It's such a personal decision. I do get this question quite a bit from associates, senior Associates asking, should I start my family now or should I wait until I get partnership? And I. Uh, from a personal point of view, I say to them, you've got to do what is right for you. You've got to do what is right for you. But I think the important part to remember is that we go into law thinking that our careers are going to be very linear. So we'll get our training contract, we'll qualify, we'll become an associate, we'll then become a senior associate or of counsel, and then it's the holy grail of partnership and then life's great or not. But actually our careers aren't like that in the same way that our lives aren't like that. So we have, I love the phrase " squiggly career". We have squiggly careers. And that's good. That's right. That's normal. Because no career runs perfectly. And so I think you're absolutely right, Lara, that things come along, whether it's children or it's caring responsibilities, or it's ill health things happen in our careers, which mean that they're not going in that linear path that we once thought that they should go on, and that doesn't mean that our careers have gone off kilter. It doesn't mean that at all. We've got to reassess that and think it's not a negative. It's not a negative. It can actually be positive. So what I say to women who I speak to is, there's no perfect time. There's no perfect time to have a family. And although you can try and control your careers, you cannot control when you're going to have your family. And in fact, with Female Counsel, we're doing a session on this at the end of the month and all about fertility and baby loss and how we manage that with careers. So it's one thing we cannot control. But I think just recognizing that our careers are not linear and we can step back at various times and reassess and reassess what we're looking for, where we're trying to go, what we're trying to achieve. That's the key to it. And normalizing that. Normalizing that our careers take different paths. What you say is totally true. I think, especially when it comes to your biology, there's no changing that unfortunately. And it is very, very difficult to make that decision. But yes, I think on a personal level, you should always think about what's best for you as a person. Your career can be molded around that. And I think not enough people think of the fact that they can design their career to a degree and that everything isn't about. This is the end. This is the only way to do things. Yeah. And you should be able to dip in and out the squiggly career, as you say. Mm-hmm. So it might suit someone to go in-house now, actually. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Really focus on finding a job, maybe even a three or four day a week role that can keep their legal brain going Yeah. But enables them to have that work-life balance that they really want to focus on starting a family even getting their health back on track. Because many people will be so exhausted that actually they don't feel ready to even consider having a family at that point. Mm-hmm. But then that in-house experience can be something absolutely fantastic to come back into private practice. You have really good client experience, you understand the commercials of a business, you've learned how to read accounts, all of these different things that suddenly accelerate. And I think what people don't realize is that sometimes a step back is a huge leap forward. So what do you advise women on going in-house for a while? I think it's an interesting route. I think the optimum and I don't do any in-house work at all, Lara, as I'm just private practice. I think the optimum my time to move in-house is when you're actually quite junior in your career, so you're probably at that two to five year PQE level. That seems to be the time that most people will move in-house. And, and it can be great and as you said, it gives lots of experience. You're actually in a business, you learn so much, you learn so much. Making the move from in-house back to private practice can be difficult. It's not impossible, but it can be difficult because of course, if you imagine that you're at that more senior level. And you're at the level where your peers are becoming partners in law firms and you want to move back to a law firm. The whole focus on partnership in law firms is about book of business and your track record of winning work. And if you've been in-house then that's very, very difficult. Now, of course, what you could say is, I've been in house with this organization. Say for example, it's a bank. I've done really well. That's a relationship I can bring with me. You might be able to say that, but it is, it's. It's doable to move back into private practice, but it can be quite difficult. And then of course, most individuals who move in-house decide to stay in-house and don't ever want to go back to private practice. I spoke to someone yesterday and she said she's been in-house for five years now and she said at the end of a call she's still reaching for a mouse to record her time. And of course you don't have to do that. So she said, it's taken me years and years and I still haven't got away from the whole time recording nightmare that we have in private practice. But I think going back to your earlier point about the linear root, it's not linear root, it's squiggly. It's a journey. And that's the way to think about it, that our careers are journeys, which will take us in different ways. It is, and it is a long journey because what we are seeing is people having longer and longer careers, especially in certain practice areas. So for example, last night I went to an event which was focused on international arbitration. And I had a very, young lady sitting next to me asking about how to get into this area. And she was still a student. Right. But I also met a very senior lawyer who was over from Singapore, who had now left private practice and become an independent arbitrator. And he's very senior and I'm thinking, wow he still wants to be working at this time of his life. But Yes. And when I was previously in a barristers' chambers, many arbitrators are in their eighties. Yeah. So we should not be thinking in terms of 20, 30 year careers anymore. These could be 40, 50, even 60 year careers. Exactly. And therefore we have so much room to experiment and. I always say what is the risk? And usually if you are in a good firm, you've got good relationships with people. And you are feeling like you want to try something new, it might be mm-hmm. become a consultant, go inhouse, start, a startup all sorts of things. If you've got some burning itch that needs to be scratched, do it as soon as possible and always leave that door open. They usually are actually quite supportive 'cause everybody knows you're curious to try a different thing. And so I've always found that those people who say, look, I just wanna try this out, would this be okay? Even you could take a sabbatical in some cases. Take that year out, tell them I wanna go off and do this. Mm-hmm. And then say to them, but would it be okay if this doesn't work out? Yeah. Could I come back? A majority of times they'll say yes. Mm-hmm. You've then completely de-risked it. You've given yourself permission to go off and try. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I have seen people who have come back, actually. It's quite interesting. Yeah. But the majority of people, because it was always. Deep down in their heart, they knew that was the right thing to do. Those people have never looked back. But at least as a lawyer, you are risk averse. Generally, you need that comfort. Yeah. But let's think about these books of business, because you did mention that, and we all know that ultimately, especially right now when it comes to people being made up or moving. mm-hmm. There is nothing more powerful than a good book of business. So how should a senior associate and a newly made up partner go about building this book? And it's all about, it's all about utilizing your network. And so every practically, every conversation I have with every candidate, every day centers around book of business and what does it mean? And I try to encourage my law firm clients to move away from the term "book of business" and to think more about track record. So look at the individual in question. Look to see what they have done over the past. If they're a partner, what have they done over the past two to three years? What work have they brought in? Which relationships have they really, really nurtured? Because that's how you will then start to develop that book of business and you will see what that individual's really like. And I think we as women, really, really undersell ourselves when we look at book of business. So most of my conversations with my female candidates, when we start to talk about Book of Business, their initial reaction to it is, " I don't have any clients that will follow me. the client base is institutionalized. They've been clients of the firm forever. They won't move with me", and that is the starting point. Our male colleagues have a little bit more bravado. When I used to talk to them about book of business, they were much more confident about what they could do, and so I have to work really, really hard with my female candidates to show them how good they are, and to show them that actually they do have this book of business because I will encourage them to look to see what they've done over the last couple of years. Where have those cases come from? Where have those big transactions come from? Yes, it might be a client of the firm, and it might be a client that's been with the firm for 15 years, but if that client is approaching you with their issue or their problem or their new transaction, they speak to you all the time. They approach you with the new matter. That is your relationship. That's your relationship, and that could potentially be your book of business. And what I always say to my female candidates is you've got to be honest about it. You've got to be honest about it, but you've got to be positively honest as well. So don't do yourself down. It's no time to hide your light under a bushel, as it were. And it can be a really, really cathartic process for someone to sit down and just look to see what they've achieved over the past few years. And it will make them realize actually how good they are. And a lot of my job is that it's bringing that out of these women. And the same thing is for senior associates. I get lots, and at the minute I'm seeing lots of senior associates who don't believe they're at the right platform. Either they are blocked for partnership or they just don't think the firm is for them and they don't want partnership with that firm, and they want to make a move as a day one partner, and that's quite a popular move in the London market at the minute. The same goes for those associates. They've got to show the hiring firm that actually they are good at business development, that they've started to bring in some work or they've nurtured existing clients and are now getting work from those clients off their own backs. So it's a real, it's a real work in progress. Some people, it comes really naturally to them and to others, they've got to work really hard at it. And of course, and we touched upon this previously, Lara, depending on which area you're in, which area of law you're in, it can be easier or it could be more difficult. So take for example, someone who's a corporate lawyer, it's probably easier for them in a way because they'll get repeat work. They'll get repeat work from those corporate clients who are buying, who are selling whatever. It can be easier for a corporate lawyer to talk about that book of business if you're a litigator. If you're an arbitration lawyer. As we mentioned, it's really hard because. In the nicest possible way, when that client comes to the end of a piece of litigation and some of these litigation pieces can be running for years. In the nicest possible way, they never want to see you again because something has gone wrong. Something has gone wrong if they're litigating, and hopefully they've learned their lesson as well. So it's really hard then for a litigator to, to point to what they can bring to a new firm. That's really, really difficult. But it's something that I think we as women have to look really carefully and recognize how good we are, and then actually, we're really good at building these relationships. We're really good at finding these sticky clients, but it's showing everyone that that's what we can do. Great advice, and I think the fact that you mentioned a lot of your role is actually bringing out these facts, basically from these female lawyers. They often overlook the fact that it is the client who calls them first, emails them, wants their advice on things because as you say, if it's a firm's existing clients, they think, oh no, it's the firm's client. I didn't bring it in. Mm-hmm. It's not business development. But it is the work, the good work that you do is, mm-hmm. Business development. Your everyday communication with your client is your business development. Interaction with the in-house lawyers is all good business development. Mm-hmm. Try and meet other members of their team. Try and do social things with them. Nurture that relationship, grow it. Just because they're an existing client, you can be proactive. You can say. Well, it's been fantastic working with you on this deal. I know that this is gonna come to a close quite soon, but what else have you got on? Are you looking at other acquisitions? Are you looking at a joint venture? What are you looking at? Certainly as you said, corporate, very much the easiest when it comes to repeat instructions. Yes. Yeah. But even in litigation, thinking about the business and the industry specialism, that can really help you in terms of asking your clients more about their industry. How can you become someone who's an expert in that field? Mm-hmm. That will help you with your business development. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I do think that niching down, becoming that go-to person for something really specific. Can help you shine. You want to be that person where everyone in your firm knows who you are. I think we should talk a little bit about internal networking and how important that is actually for female lawyers. Mm-hmm. And before we come on to that, Lara, I think one really important point to make on the book of business and what you can take to a new firm. Is the important point to remember. No one can guarantee that clients are going to follow them. No one can. Some candidates might have a lot of bravado and might say, "I can guarantee that I will bring 2 million pounds of business with me." No one can make those guarantees. So I think that's, and again, that's why women I think, shy away from it because they think they're honest and they say, I cannot, I cannot hand on heart, say, these clients will follow me. And because they do that, they then step away from promising anything at all. So it's just important to remember, no one can make any guarantees. Internal networking is crucial, absolutely crucial. And if we think about that, if you are an associate or a senior associate and you've mapped your career out and you are someone who's looking for partnership in the future. Then it's really, really important to have that strong internal network of people who you can work with, who know you, who know how good you are, and through that, you will then get the work. You will then get to meet the clients that you need to meet. But more than anything, you're working with a peer group and you enjoy it and they respect you, and you learn and you grow from that. So the internal network is really, really important. And from that, that will then give you exposure and the confidence to look at the external network as well. So talking about networking, what kind of advice do you give to female lawyers about building their network? It's crucial. It's absolutely crucial. And it's, for some people it comes really naturally. And for others, they. Just really dislike that part of the job. But it is a crucial part of it. And I think we build it up into something that's gonna be really difficult, but actually it's not. I think all female networking groups are really, really important. And obviously I would say that as I founded the Female Counsel one, but I think it's just a different vibe when you walk into a room full of women. It's so supportive and I think surrounding yourself by supportive women is really, really important. Networking is crucial not only in your industry but outside it as well. And some bits of advice that I've learned over the years is it can be quite daunting to walk into a room. Often it can be a room full of men and you might feel that you don't really know anyone, take someone with you. That's the best piece of advice I can give. If you're a junior lawyer and you have to go to a networking event, take a buddy with you, take someone with you, it just makes it so much easier. And also be quite savvy about which networking events you go to, because I think you can fall into a trap of thinking, I need to go to everything. So every night of the week you're at something or you're at a lunch every day. You've got to be quite savvy and quite decisive about which networking events are really going to help you. And don't be afraid to say no to some, which are not going to, you're not gonna get any joy out of, or aren't going to advance your career in any way. And I think you probably only learn that with age as well. And probably with mentors who can say to you, actually, you should come along to this. This will be really helpful. Or say no to that. And I think that touches a whole other issue about we as women are much more likely to say yes to everything. And it's important to sometimes say no. Having that side kick definitely is super helpful. And I think that senior associates should express their willingness to go out networking with more senior partners, show that enthusiasm. Tell them, " look, I'm taking a long view of this, I'd love to observe how this works. Can I come with you? I'm a little shy, but I'm willing, I really want this to work. Can I come with you?" And I think they will respond very positively to that. They'll want you to come with them. They'll give you tips and the main thing I think in the early days of networking is to observe others. I love standing on the side of a room and watching what's going on. You can see all the body language, you can see so many interesting human interactions. But I would say if you are going to a networking event and you haven't got a sidekick to go with you. Go early. If you can go as early as possible, then you enter the room and it's empty or just one or two people are there, you can very easily go up to the coffee and tea table, and then help someone find some tea bags or something and just start that conversation. And then of course, everybody else piles in. And you are a bit warmed up by then. Exactly. And of course, that daunting view of all those people chatting away. You don't experience that. Yeah. Because actually you are part of it already. Exactly. it's about being brave, isn't it? Be brave and go up and chat to people. But it's so funny, I had an event recently and a couple of women, they, they attended on their own. They didn't know anyone else in the group, but they bonded even before they walked into the room because they were outside the event and they took off their trainers to put on smarter shoes. Now, my events aren't that smart, but they bonded outside and so they then walked into the event together, laughing about how they caught each other changing shoes outside the event. And then, because they'd walked together, they then started talking to other women within the group, and it just builds and grows and it can grow over something quite innocuous like that, can't it? That's a good point. I often make friends in the lift on the way up to the event, so as you approach security entering the building, looking bewildered, those other people are entering as well, and you can all go, oh were you going to that event? Yes. Oh. Great. Let's go together. Then you're in the lift and trying to find this thing and that sense of collaboration Yeah. And adventure together. Doing something Yeah. Means that it's really easy then to continue the conversation. Yeah. Into that and find out about them, et cetera. With female, sorry to interrupt. With my Female Counsel networking group, it's really good because lots of our sessions are virtual. So you get to know people's faces on screens like this. So then when we have in-person events, and it's much easier of course to join and a virtual networking event like that, but then when we have the in-person events, you already know people that's an easy entrance really to an in-person event. And it's all networking. It is. And, we obviously met on LinkedIn. Yeah. So we can't end a conversation without talking about LinkedIn. So tell us what you advise people on LinkedIn. It's so, I am someone, I am not on Facebook. I've never posted a single photo on Facebook. I'm not on Instagram. I am an absolute Luddite when it comes to social media, but I knew that with LinkedIn I had to make it work to make my business work and to raise my profile. And, and it's hard, Lara. It is. I did find it difficult at the start. But my advice would be to be brave. This is a theme running through everything I say is to be brave. To start off small, to just make sure that your profile looks good, that the blurb about you is right, and then just start liking posts that resonate with you. Start liking them. Comment on some of them. Share some of them, and that will then give you the confidence to then start doing your own posts and to be, and just to be brave. But I think with LinkedIn, you've just got, it's a great tool. It's a fantastic tool. But you've got to be on it all the time and posting all the time. And it's difficult, isn't it? I find it really difficult sometimes to think, what can I post about what's going to resonate? And I think the things that really resonate are I. When you show your personality and you show who you really are, so I could post about law firms looking for partners, law firms, looking for senior associates. No one's really interested in that. What they're interested in is me and the fact that I've set up my own business. The fact that I'm passionate about women in law. The fact that I'm the founder of Female Counsel and that I have a life and a family and a dog and a son who's doing GCSEs this year, and the people just want to see that personal side of you. But it doesn't come naturally to everyone. So again, it's being brave to embrace it because it's a fantastic platform. And again, we've met so many, uh, incredible people through it. And it's, yeah, it's great. I love it. And what about those lawyers who want to promote themselves through LinkedIn, lift their profile and actually find new work? Yeah. It's so important. It's so important because again, it raises your profile. It raises your profile both with clients, but also if you are looking to potentially make a move in the future. The hiring firm will look at LinkedIn, will look to see who you are, what you are all about. And so it's a great opportunity to raise your profile and to do it in quite an organic way. Have you seen anyone actually leveraging their LinkedIn social media presence to promote themselves as someone, a senior associate say, who's actually got quite a thing going to get into a new firm, because that new firm has been attracted by their network and their their profile really like the fact that they're a legal influencer? Absolutely, because I get to know my law firm clients really well and they trust me. Not only will I send profiles and send information and send business plans, but I will say to them they're really high profile. Look at what they're doing. Look at these conferences they've been speaking at, look at LinkedIn to see what they're doing. So I will work with that candidate to show the hiring firm how good they are. So I think it's a fantastic tool to really show that you are an expert in a chosen field and also to get a bit of your personality across as well. So it, can be a really effective way of doing that. So as we round off this interview, just thinking about any final pieces of advice for these female lawyers? Wow. I think the one word I've used over and over again is to be brave, isn't it? To be brave and to constantly assess your career. Where you are, what you're doing, where you want to be. And lots of women who I come across have been at their law firms forever and, and that's great. That's absolutely fantastic. Some I speak to want to make a move because they have been reassessing the platform and have found that actually it's not the right place for them. So it's to constantly have a look at where you are. Does the firm, does it align with your values and your views? Are you progressing in the way that you want to? If not, do something about it. Take control of your career. Don't be a passenger in your career. Take control of it. Be proactive. Be brave is what I would say, and don't undersell yourself. Lots of advice there. I'm sure this episode's been really, really helpful for people. So if anyone wants to get in contact with you, Norah, where will they find you? So if they find me on LinkedIn is probably the easiest way. So Norah Durrant or Norah Durrant Recruitment, but LinkedIn's probably the best way. Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today, Norah. Okay. Thank you so much, Lara, for asking me along.