Walking the Talk with Kai Schneider, Managing Partner of Clifford Chance Singapore - Episode 9

This week in Episode 9 of the Legal Genie podcast, your host, Lara Quie is in conversation with Kai Schneider, Singapore Managing Partner of Clifford Chance, one of the global elite law firms. We talk about his career journey and what he has learnt along the way. 

Kai is the head of the Funds and Investment Management group in Singapore. With over 20 years of experience as a US qualified lawyer, Kai has particular expertise in the funds sector, advising clients on fund formation and investment in a wide variety of private investment funds. He regularly advises sponsors on accessing the US and EU markets as well as on regional licensing and securities laws.

He has been ranked as a recommended lawyer in Chambers Global and the Legal 500 since 2012.

In this episode Kai discusses:

·         His background and love of basketball

·         Why he became a lawyer

·         His law studies and training at Weil Gotshal

·         Joining Clifford Chance as an associate

·         Opening the Dubai office of Latham & Watkins and becoming a partner

·         Moving back to Clifford Chance in Singapore

·         Leading by example

·         Being a team player

·         Advice for young lawyers

Learn more about Kai:

You can connect with Kai here: https://www.cliffordchance.com/people_and_places/people/partners/sg/kai-niklas_schneider.html

Also:

·         If you liked this episode, please rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

·         Look out for the next episode coming next week 

You can connect with Lara as follows:

·         On LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie

·         Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

·         If you have a question or guest idea, please do drop Lara a line at Lara@LaraQAssociates.com

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Legal Genie Podcast Episode 9 with Kai Schneider

[00:00:00] [00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for joining me, Lara Quie, for the Legal Genie podcast. As a former corporate lawyer and APAC Head of Business Development for an international law firm, my mission with this podcast is to provide you with insights into the careers and lives of movers and shakers in the legal industry. 

[00:00:38] Mentors are hard to come by. So, by listening to these conversations, I hope that you will gain some valuable insights that will help you move forward in your career and personal life. I ask my guests to share their advice and experience with you. I ask them also to share about their mindset. As an executive coach, I work one-on-one with lawyers [00:01:00] to grow their practice and self-confidence. I also run mastermind groups and business development accelerators designed to bring like-minded people together, to learn, grow, and support each other. 

[00:01:11] If you'd like to learn more, please connect with me on LinkedIn or through my website. The details are in the show notes. Please rate and review the legal genie podcast to help us reach more people who may find it helpful. So, let's move on to this week's episode. I hope that you enjoy the conversation.   

[00:01:34] Lara Quie: [00:01:34] Hello and welcome to episode nine of the Legal Genie podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. This week, I'm in conversation with Kai Schneider, Singapore Managing Partner of Clifford Chance. One of the global elite law firms. Kai is the head of the Funds and Investment Management Group in Singapore. With over 20 years of experience as a U.S. qualified lawyer, Kai has particular expertise in the funds sector, advising [00:02:00] clients on fund formation and investment in a wide variety of private investment funds.

[00:02:04] He regularly advises sponsors on accessing the U.S. and EU markets, as well as on regional licensing and securities law. He's been ranked as a recommended lawyer in Chambers Global and the Legal 500 since 2012. Welcome Kai to the Legal Genie podcast. It's great to have you here. 

[00:02:22] Kai Schneider: [00:02:22] Good to see you again as well.

[00:02:23] Lara Quie: [00:02:23] Thank you. So, it would be great if you could tell everybody a little bit about your background, so, where you grew up and the kind of life that you had as a child. 

[00:02:33] Kai Schneider: [00:02:33] Sure.  It was a very international background. I grew up between the U.S. and Sweden as a child. Most of the time was in California.

[00:02:40] And then when I was older, I went to university and law school in Washington, DC. But back and forth between Sweden and the U.S. and I was very much a third culture kid. My parents are third culture kids as well. So, I guess it makes my children third generation, third culture kids. But my mother, as an example spent her childhood and teens in Tokyo after World War Two.

[00:03:00] [00:02:59] So, a lot of international background there. My parents were academics. My father was a professor of mechanical engineering. My mother was focused on children with learning disabilities and childhood development. And when I was growing up, I think at least for my teen years, my big focus was actually basketball of all things.

[00:03:16] So, I played high school ball in California, club ball in Sweden and I played even a year in university, actually in Egypt. But that sort of team approach of basketball had a profound impact on me in terms of future years and my career. So, that high performance team mentality always sticks with me today. But obviously with that international background, I, at least when I was younger, I thought I wanted to be an ambassador.  But here we are. 

[00:03:39] Lara Quie: [00:03:39] Swedes are very well known for their language abilities. And so, yes, being an ambassador could have been a pretty exciting role, but I like the idea that you used your basketball, camaraderie and team skills and things like that in later life. I think being part of a team and understanding your role within a larger whole is very [00:04:00] important. And so, you mentioned that you went to law school in the U.S. tell me about what actually inspired you in the first place to decide to study law?

[00:04:07] Kai Schneider: [00:04:07] I didn't start out wanting to be a lawyer as I suggested with the ambassador comment. And I actually, I was interested I guess, in politics and international relations from the beginning. And so, I did a number of internships when I was in university with Senator Dianne Feinstein who's still going strong in the U.S. Senate. U.S. Trade representative, Mickey Kantor, and others. And then my first degree and undergrad were focused on International relations foreign service. So, I actually took the foreign service exam in the U.S.  and that was the direction I was headed, but I got a bit distracted, I guess, by law school opportunities and then ultimately private practice.

[00:04:38] So, my uncle is the only other lawyer in my family. And he was the Dean of a law school, at the University of Baltimore when I was in college. And so, talking to him, I got convinced to apply to law school and ended up at the last minute going there. Mainly because of this international law angle, I thought that fit with what I was doing already.

[00:04:57] And I did like studying and wanted to continue to do that. And then [00:05:00] after I got my Juris Doctor, my JD there, I went to Georgetown for three years and got my LLM in international comparative law. So, again, continuing that sort of international journey, if you will So, it wasn't a direct route.

[00:05:12] It wasn't something I knew when I was young that I wanted to be a lawyer, but, ended up there eventually. 

[00:05:17] Lara Quie: [00:05:17] It sounds like, knowing the Dean of the law school can be quite handy for getting in. But anyway, so, then you went on to do training. Where did you do that? 

[00:05:28] Kai Schneider: [00:05:28] So, I was a summer associate, slightly different than a UK context in the U S are you're a summer associate for 10 weeks, 12 weeks.

[00:05:36] So, I was a summer associate at Weil Gotshal, which is a New York firm in their DC office. I did that for a couple summers up there for a year and then got a permanent role there. But I deferred that for a year because I actually ended up with a clerkship for a federal judge in the U S so, I did that for a year before going back to Weil, which was an interesting experience participated in, or my judge did I sat next to her during the first Case [00:06:00] around one of the 911 related parties the first U.S. Federal case around that.

[00:06:03] So, that's maybe worthy of a different podcast. But lots of stories around that experience, but it convinced me that I didn't want to do litigation or the disputes part of private practice. And I was much more interested in transactional work. And so, after that, I then, as I said, rejoined, Weil Gotshal and spent a number of years there doing private funds. But I guess when I first joined Weil I was trying to find something international, so, again, with this international theme and looked at the various practice areas and the options and the one that stuck out was international trade, I thought international that's what I'm all about, that's my practice area. What I discovered was it was much more U.S. administrative law, so, countervailing duty anti-dumping type work. And so, it wasn't very international at all. But what I discovered is on the transactional side and in particularly with private equity funds, there was much more scope for transferability of those skills across jurisdictions and your qualification was less relevant. So, I ended up joining the private equity fund formation practice, then at [00:07:00] Weil Gotshal.

[00:07:00] And most of the work I did back then was with sponsors in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe as they were emerging into more capitalist environments, private equity firms really took off there and we'd help them set up and sponsor those funds. And so, then I was at Weil for probably total five years but always wanting to go outside the U S I knew that from the beginning.

[00:07:19] And so, once I built up that base of experience that I thought was transferrable, I asked to be transferred somewhere else back then. And this is decades ago. U.S. firms didn't have the same global coverage that they do today. And so, the options were limited. I could go to London, but for me, that was just going back to Europe.

[00:07:35] It wasn't particularly interesting. And so, I don't think Google existed, but I did, Yahoo or looked around and did a search of top funds practices in Asia, because for me, Asia was always something interesting, my mother's connection. And it seemed like at least from a macro perspective, a huge opportunity.

[00:07:50] When I did that search, I came across Clifford Chance and so, I applied to them in Hong Kong and moved out to Hong Kong in 2005 and spent a few years out there as a senior [00:08:00] associate, again, doing private funds. And then I made a move, which I'll explain, but I think one of the constant themes is I've never said no to opportunities.

[00:08:07] So, when opportunities arise. Even if there's a bit of risk there, I tend to explore and action those but I've got a supportive wife and family cause there's been a lot of quick moves relocations. So, that’s helpful, but that's one thing there as well. So, when I was at CC Hong Kong having a great time, but I came across an opportunity to actually join Latham and Watkins another U.S. firm, who were looking to open offices in the Middle East.

[00:08:32] I was young. I thought it was an interesting opportunity to get management experience, operational experience. And so, I actually joined Latham's London office. But immediately started in Dubai where they didn't have an office Latham's IT team flew down with a laptop gave it to me and I sat at a Starbucks equivalent for the first month found office space. And then the team started to build. And I was part of the group that then launched four offices over the next couple of years in the Middle East in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha, [00:09:00] and an association in Riyadh and then I shifted back to building funds practice.

[00:09:03] I built a funds practice in the Middle East and was there about six years. But there was a limit to the Middle East in terms of the size of the practice I could build. And so, I was looking back again towards Asia and an opportunity out here. And Clifford Chance kept calling me every six months and saying, are you done with that experience?

[00:09:18] Do you wanna come back? And I missed my friends. I did, I missed my friends at CC. I did have some clients too, that were clamoring for a, a larger global platform to work with. And so, I returned to CC and was on my way to Hong Kong and got a call from a partner at CC saying that they had lost their funds practice in Singapore and would I be willing to move to Singapore instead? So, I sort of diverted the shipment to Singapore and then ended up here six, almost seven years ago now. So, an interesting sort of route, but again, my point around, seizing those opportunities as they come up, I couldn't have predicted this route, but this is sort of the route it ended up taking.

[00:10:00] [00:10:00] Yes. And it sounds very interesting about obviously your desire to be somewhere different and explore something new. So, tell me a bit about building the Dubai office. So, it sounds like you were literally, in Starbucks with a laptop, so, what's that like to be a startup?  Obviously, part of a much larger law firm, but basically in startup mode, in a brand-new place and actually not your home turf.  What is it like to try and build a practice and an office somewhere new?

[00:10:29] Well, it's a massive challenge, but also incredibly exciting.  I can remember knocking on doors with clients and I had people say, well, are you a software company? And no one had even heard of the brand. You know, now Latham is a very well-known brand, even in the Middle East, but back then, no one had heard of them or knew who they were.

[00:10:47] So, you were starting, you did have the resources of a large global institution, but you were starting from scratch. So, it was a challenge, and everything falls on your desk. So, from, wearing a hardhat to find office space, [00:11:00] to making sure the coffee machine works to hiring. And finding partners and bringing work in, it's a full 360 of a law firm business, but,  I was young, it was absolutely fascinating, huge trajectory in terms of growth and,  learning. And I guess one thing I realized in that process is I, really enjoy building things.

[00:11:19] And whether that's with my hands when I was younger in terms of, working on a house or something, but even from a business perspective. So, building those offices in the Middle East was an incredibly satisfying and rewarding experience.  Very, very difficult. But we grew that to 50 lawyers over, a couple of years and to see that and to go into the office every day it was an incredible experience, very, very rewarding. 

[00:11:43] Lara Quie: [00:11:43] What is the business mentality like in the Middle East?

[00:11:48] Kai Schneider: [00:11:48] It's quite similar to Asia. I mean, I would sort of describe it as maybe Asia, 10 years ago, something like that. And it's changed now.  I haven't been practicing there for seven years now.  It's evolved. But when I was [00:12:00] there, it was still emerging.  There were a fair number of international firms there, but they all had fairly small outposts.

[00:12:05] There were a couple of exceptions, like Clifford Chance. Who'd been there for, 30, 40 years at that point and had a larger outpost, but it's, it's a different environment. There's a lot of education you do with clients in terms of your value add as a lawyer, but also just around products.

[00:12:18] So, looking at it from a private equity perspective.  Private equity as a concept was newer in the region. And so, a lot of the clients that you were dealing with, hadn’t set up dozens and dozens of private equity funds and, needed a bit of a tutorial and more handholding. So, there’s a bit of being a bit of a professor around the subject matter.

[00:12:35] But it also allows you to create incredibly rewarding and long-lasting client relationships, right? They become quite sticky. You can more easily become a trusted advisor because you're there from the beginning with them on that journey. And, I still have client relationships in the Middle East that I service out of Singapore where, I was there on the ground as they got started.

[00:12:54] And what they're doing in their business, and I've helped and grown with them over the years. So, I think emerging markets like [00:13:00] that are difficult.  They require you to have that sort of base of understanding and knowledge that I got from the U.S. And practicing there. But   if you can leverage that there it's a huge opportunity.

[00:13:10] Lara Quie: [00:13:10] I like the idea of you getting in there right from the beginning with those clients and really nurturing and helping them understand the whole private equity world and the benefits of it and how they can leverage that. And then for them to grow up with you and you to be their trusted advisor, and then obviously with a global mindset and a global role, you're able to service them out of anywhere that you are.

[00:13:32] And now that you're here in Singapore and everything is so, closely connected, it’s very easy to do that.   I think you became a partner at Latham & Watkins? So, what was that journey like?  What did you have to do to become a partner?

[00:13:46] Kai Schneider: [00:13:46] Every firm has a different process that at Latham there's something called the Associates Committee. That's actually comprised of 50% partners 50% associates that reviews candidates and ultimately makes recommendations around partnership.  [00:14:00] I was a bit unusual I’d come in and sort of been involved opening offices as a senior associate at the time. And I remember going to a partners’ meeting in New York for Latham when I wasn't a partner because of that. You know, I then was put up for partner and two years after joining Latham, which is again, a bit unusual for a lateral. It was a different process completely than we have at Clifford Chance.

[00:14:18] So, it was very much the candidate was less involved than we have at Clifford Chance, for example. But I, guess the way I look at it is I never really set out to be a partner that was sort of a by-product. Right? And in fact, when I first came to the Middle East, and even in Hong Kong, frankly, I often felt like I was acting like a partner.

[00:14:35] Right?  If someone didn't ask me my title, they probably wouldn't have known. So, I always tell my associates, fake it till you make it, as long as you're delivering for the client and you're being that trusted advisor, the title's sort of secondary. 

[00:14:47] I didn't have a goal. I can't remember having a goal of being a partner that was not how I approached it. I wanted to work for great clients, do interesting groundbreaking work, and build a market leading practice that I was proud of. And the partner title just [00:15:00] came along with it.

[00:15:01] Lara Quie: [00:15:01] So, now you're the Singapore Managing Partner of Clifford Chance.  What does a typical day look like for you? 

[00:15:08] Kai Schneider: [00:15:08] Juggling lots of different balls. I'm really lucky because I've got an incredibly strong sort of C-suite around me. And there’s business professionals know how to run a business, do a great job.

[00:15:19] I see myself probably much more as a chairman in terms of my role in what I do. But it is a little business, we’ve got close to a couple of hundred people in the office here. And you’ve got your own P and L and you look at it a bit like a business. It's obviously part of a larger firm and I don't like the sort of office accounting dynamics to drive decisions or our strategy because we’re, part of one global firm.

[00:15:40] But it's yeah, it’s an interesting challenge. And I leveraged a lot of what I learned in the Middle East in terms of how to run an office, how to motivate teams. And I've still got my day-to-day practice on the private fund side. So, that’s, the juggling.

[00:15:54] Lara Quie: [00:15:54] How do you cope mentally then with the long hours that must be involved in your practice and of [00:16:00] course, managing the firm as well? 

[00:16:02] Kai Schneider: [00:16:02] Well, there'll be a theme here, basketball, of course. So, , I still play when I'm not injured  or something on  Saturdays at the national stadium here in Singapore and,  that's the one moment that we forget,    everything else falls away  and you're just,  playing on that team.

[00:16:17] Very sort of single-minded in terms of focus and performance and, winning and, that I find, removes the stress, it cleanses everything.  I also do a fair amount of working out and other physical activities on a daily basis, which gives me time to reflect    to remain calm despite all the noise going on around me.

[00:16:37] Lara Quie: [00:16:37] And so, obviously we're in the COVID period still. And so, how has your team and your firm coped with COVID and what sort of changes have you made? 

[00:16:46] Kai Schneider: [00:16:46] So, it’s been an interesting time. In all sorts of ways. I think what we did in APAC as a firm is we established guiding principles upfront very early on before we knew how it was all going to develop.

[00:16:57] And there was three of them well there still are three, [00:17:00] one is protecting the health and wellbeing of our people. The other is preventing the spread of the virus, of course. And the last one is continue to deliver at a high level for our clients. And we use these to sort of, as the guiding principles, to all the decisions we made around, whether to split teams, close offices, how to deal with different situations.

[00:17:16] And then we also created a very diverse and inclusive incident management team across APAC that met very regularly and made these decisions. So, that served as well. I think the biggest issue is just the virtual nature of the world we're living in at the moment.

[00:17:30] And I see sort of two angles to that one is the client angle, and one is the team angle and on the client angle, it's very, very hard to build new relationships in a virtual world. Right. It's just, it's just very difficult. It's possible, but it's difficult. And so, we're living with our existing relationships off of already developed goodwill, right? So, we've got a sort of reserve goodwill with our existing relationships that we're continuing to survive off of. But at some point, we need to get back out there and then the other one is [00:18:00] on the team. Like I said, I really miss, the personal engagement with the team.

[00:18:03] Every chance I have to come to the office. I'm always here, but not always the case for others. And really requires more of a concerted effort to keep those relationships alive. Now you used to have the hallway, meets or water cooler chats, if you will, with people on a regular basis.

[00:18:19] And now you have to manufacture those right. Actually, you have to schedule them to make them work. And so, we've been doing that my own funds team in Singapore. We have calls three times a week on video, last one at the end of the week, we don't talk about work. So, it's just what people are doing on the weekend, how everyone's getting along, learnings from the week.

[00:18:36] I’ve got other colleagues that do sort of virtual office hours. Where they just turn their teams on in the afternoon and people can keep it on and work and do whatever they're going to do otherwise. But if they want to say, "Oh, hey, I've got a question on this provision". There's someone there to answer it.

[00:18:50] So, it feels like you're sharing an office with someone which can be quite nice. But ultimately, I think it really needs to be led from the top. Right. You've got to have people at the top, driving these more [00:19:00] manufactured, synthetic structures to allow that connectivity.

[00:19:02] And if you don't, you're going to have retention issues, right? Cause people need to feel part of a team. And if they're not able to feel part of the team, if that glue is not there you have well there's supervision issues, development issues, obviously, but you ultimately have retention issues. So, a bit like with the clients, we're still living off of that reserve of those relationships that we built when we still could see people But, ultimately it limits the growth and evolution I think of internal networks, especially with the lack of travel. Right. 

[00:19:29] Lara Quie: [00:19:29] Definitely. As you point out, it is all about those relationships and the trust that had already been established. And the connectivity, I think, the feeling of being a team, but what does that look like when you're in a virtual world?

[00:19:43] And so, it's good to hear that you've got things like office hours.  When I think back to what it was like to be a trainee and the amount of supervision that I needed, but like literally every hour I'd hit a wall and I'd need to talk to someone. Wouldn't necessarily need to be a [00:20:00] partner, but someone a bit more senior to me to be able to just say, Oh, can I just check?

[00:20:04] I just want to know this and having that accessibility because in the virtual world, things kind of get magnified. Don't they, like the importance of something, because if I got stuck and I would have to book an appointment and I would have to wait, it would be very, very difficult. So, I think that leveraging technology to make sure that you recreate the availability of people that connectivity, the ability to ask things in a very casual way. So, you mentioned the water cooler moments from a sort of risk management perspective. It often was those water cooler moments when the, Oh, by the way kind of throw away little aside would actually be the huge thing where they're saying you know what Jones is not doing so, well right now I'm a little bit worried about them, but you don't want to escalate that to a whole call about you just talking about Jones. So, I think   you need to be creative as management to [00:21:00] come up with mechanisms whereby these things don't fall away, and that people can be themselves.

[00:21:05] People can connect and you yourself.   You have very high emotional intelligence I can tell. and that is something that leaders really do need. And I think you will have noticed in your dealings with many lawyers, that there are various types of lawyers. And certainly, there are academic types who just like to sit in their office, get their head down, do the work, fantastic legal quality.

[00:21:28] But when it comes to management of their team, nurturing the next generation of lawyers, et cetera, they leave a lot to be desired. But as somebody who is a leader, what would you say are the best ways to nurture your soft skills? 

[00:21:45] Kai Schneider: [00:21:45] So, that's, an interesting question. I think some of the stuff you're, it's difficult to teach.

[00:21:51] Right. But I, guess the way I'd sort of look at it. I guess there's certain. Sort of keys for me that anyone can try to think about [00:22:00] and can use to help nurture those softer skills. I mean, for me, compassion and empathy are key, right? So, putting yourself in someone else's shoes. So, I think we too often don't do that.

[00:22:11] We should be doing that all the time. Right? So, everyone's experience is different. I've got my own experience. You've got your own experience and that person on the wall of your own experience. And so, we've got to appreciate that.  I might have kids, someone else may not have kids. They may be taking care of their elderly parents they could be alone.

[00:22:28] Right? And those are all different experiences leading to the different issues that people are struggling with. So, I think that's one important tool to help remember that and to learn. And then the other, I mean, this is just a key sort of leadership thing for me, but leading by example, Right.

[00:22:43] Showing people, what excellence is, but also that you have vulnerabilities, right? No, one's perfect. And that you're struggling as well   with particular situations. So, for me, leading by example is not just, being the first, across the finish line every single time.

[00:22:57] It's the whole package in terms of our [00:23:00] purpose and values as a business. And, so, I'll do things. Maybe I shouldn't say this publicly, but I will manufacturer those sorts of events to make me more human and to make people feel that things are okay. So, I will leave the door open during a conference call and it can be an important conference call because I'll, you know, my younger daughters will walk in and climb on me and to show people that I'm juggling too.

[00:23:21] And it's okay. Right. And maybe a slight interruption or a giggle or something, but we can still get on with business. And   that doesn't change our ability to deliver for clients. And it's just the reality of the world we're living in. So, showing that sort of human side is, particularly important.

[00:23:34] Lara Quie: [00:23:34] Definitely that has been much of a theme during COVID the authenticity of leaders. The ability to be vulnerable to really say, I’m here to lead by example, I'm here to be your leader. If you choose me to be your leader. But at the end of the day, I don't have all the answers.

[00:23:54] Nobody does. These are uncertain times. And as lawyers really love certainty. So, [00:24:00] it's   a very difficult time for lawyers and the economy has been struck by all sorts of different things. But I think that actually many law firms are able to see opportunities for growth in certain areas and to maybe scale back in others.

[00:24:14] But this is a time for creativity, for the ability to spot opportunities and move into those spaces very quickly. So, another buzz word right now, right, is agility. So, how do you maintain agility? 

[00:24:29] Kai Schneider: [00:24:29] Personally or with the business? 

[00:24:31] Lara Quie: [00:24:31] Both. 

[00:24:33] So, 

[00:24:34] Kai Schneider: [00:24:34] I do yoga on Saturdays. But I think it's a really good point. I look at this well, just from a career perspective, right? The traditional path or trajectory in private practice was very linear was very sort of one dimensional. You entered private practice and you worked hard, eventually got to be a partner and you stayed in that firm for the rest of your career.

[00:24:53] And that's just not the case anymore. There's an incredible route, mobility and flexibility and lateral movement. And you know, a law [00:25:00] degree these days is simply a tool to other things and private practice often as well is, it's an invaluable experience, but it's not necessarily the end all and be all for a person or their career.

[00:25:09] There's much more flexibility, mobility, as I said that people need to think about. And so, I think if my career is any indication of that, I've been incredibly open to opportunities and risk-taking and I haven't thought sort of linearly like that or let the history that's happened before me otherwise constrain my approach to opportunities that come across my plate. And so, I think people need to think more broadly, look at what they want to do, what excites them. And also try to project out in terms of the legal industry and the direction it's going as to where those opportunities will be.

[00:25:44] Because it's moving at such a fast pace too. It had the first hundred years or 200 years of private practice, has been pretty stagnant and now it's going like this.  Every few months, things are changing. Right? And the value then assigned to those sorts of skills or [00:26:00] experience starts to shift and change.

[00:26:01] So, I think need to go in with the right mindset. And I do think, the younger lawyers, at least that we're recruiting, bringing to the firm do have a different mindset than the older generations, right. There they're much more nimble agile in the way they think and the way they approach opportunities.

[00:26:17] They're often more willing to challenge, which is wonderful. So, one of the big things that I've done in Singapore as Managing Partner is set up an innovation hub for Asia Pacific and the biggest contributors to that hub and the lab that's related to it our young lawyers, often our trainees just out of law school you know, they're, you know, why are you doing it like this? And we say well it's always been done that way and they say but it doesn't make any sense.  Have you thought about this process or this technology?

[00:26:44] And so,,  whether that's helping us with our disruption journey in terms of how we provide a service to clients, or then ultimately helping clients as advisors with their own disruption journey  that younger generation of more agile, flexible thinkers is proving incredibly valuable.

[00:27:00] [00:26:59] Yes. And that younger generation really value passion and purpose and work-life balance. So, in a firm like yours, which generally, has a sort of a rather a long hours culture, how are you able to give these younger people the work-life balance that they really crave? 

[00:27:20] Yeah. And I'd like to say we were almost there before COVID and we were on the path, but COVID has really and the pandemic's really changed that.

[00:27:28] So, what it's done is it's proved to everyone, including the naysayers that remote working works, that flexibility works. We're still delivering to clients.  The business is still doing well. And the old-fashioned excuses behind some of that flexibility have been proven to be incorrect.

[00:27:43] We we've talked about the challenges of a completely virtual environment and those exist, but a combined environment with flexibility is clearly possible. And Asia Pacific for Clifford Chance, we've now adopted a policy around that. That allows across the entire business. And that's [00:28:00] fee earners, as well as business professionals, flexibility in terms of where they work. So, you only have to be in the office now, 50% of the time which is a real dramatic change from how a big private used to use to operate and approach this sort of thing.

[00:28:15] I mean, especially the U S was always a bit more flexible, but in the UK, you always have your trainee in your office. And it's that teaching by osmosis, that is a sort of foundation block of the training program.   That doesn't work. We've talked again about some of the virtual ways you can try to mimic that, but we've found that you can have a balanced split and provide that flexibility and still pull it off. 

[00:28:37]Lara Quie: [00:28:37] So, just talking about those younger lawyers again,  what advice have you got for younger lawyers and  senior associates and their career path, because you mentioned the very linear path, the traditional path that certainly existed for our generation, but it definitely isn't like that now, especially with disruption and legal tech and all sorts of different things that you can do in a legal career, [00:29:00] which doesn't need to be, even be doing the law side. But what would you recommend to people who are listening to this podcast? 

[00:29:07] Kai Schneider: [00:29:07] So, every situation is obviously different, but I think there are a few things to think about.  So, one of those is whether partnership is really something you want to do. And I often hear these days people say, I see what the partners do, and I don't want to do that.

[00:29:20] That's totally fine. And I think there is, at least at Clifford Chance, the experience you get as being an associate or through being an associate at the firm. Is, as I've said before, invaluable, and you can use that in all sorts of different ways, whether that's in the startup world with your own startup, an idea, or, in-house or in politics or   the world's endless in terms of opportunities, because I think a law degree really helps you teaches you how to think critically and that skillset you can apply all over the place. So, I guess, keep your mind open, look at the opportunities. I wouldn't say no to anything, explore everything and be willing to think and, take some risks, be a bit more dramatic, possibly in terms of how you think about those [00:30:00] options. 

[00:30:00] I can remember. Not that long ago, if I looked at a CV and I saw multiple jumps between firms red flags are raised and I said, wait a second. What does this mean? I can tell you today. I don't think about that anymore.  I look at the CV. Yes. I will ask the logic or the rationale for the choices people have made.

[00:30:17] But, moving around, even in and out of private practice is no longer an end to a private practice career. Right.  We have people that leave and have an idea, or their friend has an idea and they run a startup for a couple of years and then they come back.  And that's okay today.

[00:30:31] Right? So, there's, so many more options, I think, in the legal industry and more broadly that are available to senior associates and law grads   than there was before. Whether that's legal tech or looking at sort of multidisciplinary type solutions for clients we’ve got law firms in the big four now, for example. Right? So, it’s endless. 

[00:30:50] Lara Quie: [00:30:50] Definitely.  There are lots and lots of choices out there. And I know that you're a father of three daughters and I've got three daughters and our girls are at school together. So, [00:31:00] looking at your three daughters, would you actually recommend a career in law to them?

[00:31:03] I would, and I look at it sort of also, if I were to look back at my own career at the beginning and ask myself whether I would've made some of the decisions I made. And I think the answer is I would yes, I’m not in the foreign service. I'm not the ambassador that I wanted to be at age seven, but I’ve been able to travel around the world, experience things that I would never have experienced.

[00:31:23] Kai Schneider: [00:31:23] Staying put in one jurisdiction.  I have had an incredible career and that’s been because of law, right. Ultimately because of private practice. So, there are, it's obviously not easy at all times, but I think if you, if you can find an environment where you're doing it with friends, or you build a team around you of like-minded people with a common goal, common values even if there's long hours, you're doing it with friends and family, it's an enjoyable experience.

[00:31:49] Again, it goes back a bit probably to my basketball years and experience. Hard work. Right. Our coach used to have us running these call mate line [00:32:00] reels or 16-line drills back and forth. I remember vomiting after workouts, but it was difficult and hard work, but we were, I was doing it with this group of incredible individuals.

[00:32:11] That was the team. And that's what made it all worthwhile. And, and boy, you know, you put every last ounce of your energy into it, because it was for the team and for that, group, and that common objective. So, yeah, I think I would, if my daughters ask and they haven't yet but I would, still recommend it.

[00:32:28] I think the law firm world of 10 years ago is also very different than the law firm world today. I'm not sure I'd give the same answer 10 years ago, frankly.  I believe that there's been a lot of change. The level of diversity still is not where it needs to be in big law.

[00:32:41] It's not it's getting there. But I think, it's not just flexibility, like we're talking about before in terms of people in different circumstances and allowing a lot of people to continue to practice from those circumstances. But it's actually more gender diversity in leadership positions, I think people looking up, so, if my daughters were in a law firm, they'd [00:33:00] look up, they need to see inspiring role models, right?

[00:33:02] That they can relate to. And we're not there yet.  There are wonderful ones there, but just, that level of diversity isn't there yet. And we still need to drive that. So, if my daughters can be part of that, that would be a wonderful thing. But no,  I wouldn't turn them away from law.

[00:33:15] Lara Quie: [00:33:15] That's very good to hear. And I would say that you definitely are an ambassador. You're an ambassador for your firm and for the legal profession. So, congratulations, Kai on achieving being an ambassador, despite a different title. So, on that note, thank you for your valuable time and your valuable insights, Kai.

[00:33:36] So, if people want to get in touch with you, what would be the best way? 

[00:33:40] Kai Schneider: [00:33:40] Email is fine. Type in my name, you'll find me all over the web. Always happy to meet for coffee or chat to anyone. So, send me an email. 

[00:33:48] Lara Quie: [00:33:48] That's great. So, thank you very much for listening to the Legal Genie podcast with my special guest today, Kai Schneider.

[00:33:55] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode of the legal genie [00:34:00] podcast, please go to Apple podcasts and give it a rating and review to help others. Find it. Please do subscribe so, that you don't miss the next exciting episode of the legal genie podcast. Thanks for listening. Have a magical week ahead.

[00:34:15]