Setting the Bar High with Ravi Aswani of 36 Stone - Episode 13

In Episode 13 of the Legal Genie podcast, your host, Lara Quie, is in conversation with Ravi Aswani. 

Ravi is a commercial dispute resolution barrister, arbitrator, and mediator at 36 Stone. 

Called to the bar of England & Wales in year 2000, he has a broad practice which covers shipping and international trade, commodities, energy, oil and gas, metals and mining, insurance and re-insurance, banking and finance.  

Ravi is instructed primarily in the Commercial Court in the UK, as well as international arbitrations seated all over the world.  

He is consistently recommended by Chambers & Partners UK Bar and Global Directories as well as the Legal 500. 

Ravi has a longstanding passion for matters of equality, diversity, inclusion, belonging, and social mobility. 

He is also passionate about mentoring and assisting the next generation of practitioners.

In this episode Ravi shares:

·         His childhood growing up in the leafy suburbs.

·         Studying law at UCL and going to Nottingham for his Bar Vocational Course.

·         His pupillage and the challenges he faced. How his experience as a pupil has made him determined to be a good pupil supervisor.

·         How he turned not getting a tenancy into an advantage.

·         How 36 Stone is experimenting with ways to level the playing field and encourage social mobility.

·         Why you should try to get a placement at a law firm and a chambers before deciding to become a barrister.

·         The challenges of being a self-employed barrister.

·         The benefits of using LinkedIn to attract new work.

·         Playing the long game when it comes to business development and building relationships abroad.

·         Dealing with imposter syndrome. 

·         How specialising in shipping law helped him to create a broad-based commercial disputes practice. 

·         His experience of mentoring. 

·         His six pieces of advice for young lawyers.

I hope that you will enjoy the episode.

To learn more about Ravi Aswani you can find him on LinkedIn and connect with him here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/raviaswani/

https://36group.co.uk/members/rga1

Also:

·         If you liked this episode, please rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

·         Look out for the next episode coming soon.

You can connect with Lara Quie as follows:

·         On LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie

·         Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

·         If yo

Lara Q Associates
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Transcript

Episode 13 of the Legal Genie Podcast with Ravi Aswani.

 [00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for joining me, Lara Quie, for the Legal Genie Podcast. As a former corporate lawyer and APAC Head of Business Development for an international law firm, my mission with this podcast is to provide you with insights into the careers and lives of movers and shakers in the legal industry. 

[00:00:40] Mentors are hard to come by so, by listening to these conversations, I hope that you will gain some valuable insights that will help you move forward in your career and personal life. I ask my guests to share their advice and experience with you. I ask them also to share about their mindset. As an executive coach, [00:01:00] I work one-on-one with lawyers to grow their practice and self-confidence. I also run mastermind groups and business development accelerators designed to bring like-minded people together, to learn, grow, and support each other. 

[00:01:13] If you'd like to learn more, please connect with me on LinkedIn or through my website. The details are in the show notes. Please rate and review the Legal Genie Podcast to help us reach more people who may find it helpful. So, let's move on to this week's episode. I hope that you enjoy the conversation.   

[00:01:36] Lara Quie: [00:01:36] Hello, and welcome to Episode 13 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. I'm delighted to have with me today, Ravi Aswani, commercial dispute resolution, barrister, arbitrator, and mediator at 36 Stone. 

[00:01:55] Called to the bar of England and Wales in year 2000, he has a [00:02:00] broad practice which covers a number of areas, including shipping and international trade commodities, energy, oil, and gas, metals, and mining, insurance, reinsurance banking, and finance. 

[00:02:12] Ravi is instructed primarily in the commercial court, in the UK, as well as international arbitrations seated all over the world, including here in Singapore. Ravi's international commercial arbitration work involves disputes arising out of a very wide range of industries and sectors. He's often instructed as co-counsel with a view to making up a multidisciplinary team and in recent years has been instructed in a number of arbitrations with foreign seats and or arising out of contracts, governed by a law other than English law.  

[00:02:45] Ravi has sat as a deputy district judge in the county court since 2013 in general civil matters and in 2020, received an authorization to hear specialist Chancery, bankruptcy, and insolvency matters. He is [00:03:00] regularly asked to provide expert evidence on English law for use in foreign courts and arbitral tribunals.  

[00:03:06] Ravi has a longstanding passion for matters of equality, diversity, and inclusion, belonging, and social mobility. He's also passionate about mentoring and assisting the next generation of practitioners.  So, after that big introduction, Ravi, welcome to the show. 

[00:03:25] Ravi Aswani: [00:03:25] Thank you very much, Lara, for that kind introduction. And thank you so, much for having me on your podcast. I'm really looking forward to it. 

[00:03:31] Lara Quie: [00:03:31] Brilliant. Let's start right at the beginning so, tell me a little bit about your background and where you grew up. 

[00:03:38] Ravi Aswani: [00:03:38] Okay. Sure. I was born and brought up in England, just outside London in a little village called Shepperton, which is where my parents were based. And it was a really fun place to be a child. It was green. It was safe. My parents still live there, so, every now and then we go back, obviously we haven't been in the last 14 months, unfortunately.

[00:03:58] But it was a [00:04:00] lovely, quiet, safe place to grow up in eighties which is when I'm going back to now. And things really. Okay. I guess haven't moved that far because I'm still based in London, although a little bit further in and a little bit further north. I live in Pinner now, which again, is a very leafy area.

[00:04:16] We're out in zone five, but it feels like we have that village feel. And back in the days when we were still commuting, which I haven't been for a while, it was about an hour door to door to my chambers in London and by London standards, that's pretty good. So, I've obviously retained that love of village life.

[00:04:36] Lara Quie: [00:04:36] So, tell me about choosing to study law at university. What inspired that? 

[00:04:41] Ravi Aswani: [00:04:41] Well, I suppose the starting point is I didn't really have any practicing lawyers in my family. And so, from that perspective, you might say it wasn't necessarily an obvious choice, but I became interested in the law generally in my teenage years. I'm probably going to [00:05:00] give my age away now. But the TV shows on at the time, which peaked, my curiosity were Perry Mason from the United States and Cavanagh QC from the UK.

[00:05:10] It’s very funny on that point, I thought I'd be hip and cool with some mentees recently. And I tried dropping "Ally McBeal" and "This Life" into some conversations with them. But of course, they had no idea what I was talking about. This really does show you how long ago we were talking about mid-1990s.

[00:05:28] But obviously it wasn't just about watching these glamorous. TV shows. I did my research around what the professions, the solicitor's profession and the barrister's profession entailed around what degree subjects would be good. And in the end, I decided to do law. Although these days that's certainly not a prerequisite.

[00:05:47] We have many lawyers who studied a different degree, did a conversion course. And I learned the difference crucially between barristers and solicitors, which is not really something that people necessarily at that age know about. And bear in [00:06:00] mind, this was just about pre-internet time. So, it wasn't possible to Google for information in the way that we do now.

[00:06:06] And this involved going to the library, this involved reading books, this involved speaking to people. I'm happy to see that my teachers were very, very supportive of this. I often hear from mentees, very sad stories about being discouraged away from it all because it's not necessarily for them or that they're not academic enough, et cetera from teachers, but happily, I didn't have any of that.

[00:06:28] I had support from school in particular, my unforgettable headmaster, Mr. Crook, who was very happy to support and guide me in the right direction. And I came around to the view eventually that I'd be more suited to the barrister's branch of the profession than the solicitors branch. I enjoyed the advocacy.

[00:06:46] I thought I would enjoy. And I do indeed enjoy the freedom of being self-employed. I secured a place to read law at UCL, which in the late nineties was a really fantastic place to study. It was just coming up as one of [00:07:00] the best research universities in the country and indeed in the world. And in London, all the students, we were really at the heart of what was going on.

[00:07:09] It was very easy to visit courts. We were in on day two visits by solicitors firms and barristers chambers. So, yeah, it was a fun time for someone who wanted to use these opportunities to find out about the career, that there were many, many opportunities. Again, I'm going to give my age away here. I was in the last cohort of students.  We started our degrees in 1996. So, I was the very last year that didn't have to pay any tuition fees. And I'm sure it's the same for you. We all have a special attachment to our Alma maters. But in particular, when I effectively had a free education, which is almost unthinkable for the students of today, I was delighted when a few years ago, UCL started a formal mentoring scheme for law students. And I've been very actively participating in that for the past couple of years. 

[00:07:58] So, I guess in a sense, things have [00:08:00] come full circle for me. Now when I was embarking upon this career path in the late nineties, people even then were predicting the imminent demise of the self-employed bar, yet here we are, 25 years later, still thriving.

[00:08:14] I'm not going to pretend it hasn't had its ups and downs. Of course, it has, I'm not going to say there's nothing I wouldn't change. Obviously, there are things, but looking back at this stage, it's been an incredible 20 years and hopefully I'll have at least another 20 more to look forward to. 

[00:08:30] Lara Quie: [00:08:30] You're doing very well, Ravi, but after being at UCL, you chose to go to Nottingham law school. So, tell us about that choice. And tell us about the BVC course that you did. 

[00:08:41] Ravi Aswani: [00:08:41] Yeah, so, again it looks like a slightly random thing. Doesn't it? Having been a London born and bred. And also back then the Inns of court school of law was the default choice for going to bar school, I think when I did bar school, it was only maybe the third year where the [00:09:00] Bar Standards Board had broken up the monopoly that the Inns of Court School of Law had, and had allowed other providers to provide the course and the course in Nottingham, I was always the kind of person I would research things very, very thoroughly. I did my research and it was a new up and coming course, but had a very, very good write up both from members of the profession who'd had students pass through it and from former students and, knowing that if my plan was going to go to plan, I'd be in London, for most of my career, I thought this was an opportunity having studied my law degree in London, actually to have a year outside the capital in a different city. 

[00:09:43] And I'm so, glad I did the course itself was excellent.  Like I mentioned I think it's good to put yourself into something unfamiliar from time to time. It wasn't a new city. I've obviously been living away from home whilst at university, but my parents were only an hour [00:10:00] away. And so, I would find that there was that crutch to rely upon, which was only a small journey away but from Nottingham, it was obviously much more of a day trip or even a weekend trip.

[00:10:10] And it was just great to see another city, to see a new group of people. And the course, like I mentioned was excellent. Looking back, I'm very glad I did it.  One of the regrets I have is not doing a master's at the time. Obviously, it's far too late now. But whenever anyone asks me about this, I always advise them if, obviously it's not cheap these days, but if it's something that you can realistically afford, do it and try doing it at a different university to where you did your undergrad, just to broaden your experience. But certainly, it was a fantastic year out of London in a great city. I haven't been back to Nottingham for a while, but I understand it's changed completely now. There are trams everywhere. It's all become pedestrianized. But it is an [00:11:00] ambition of mine at some point to take the family there for a weekend and show them some of my old haunts.

[00:11:07] I'm thinking about how it's very different being a barrister, as you said, self-employed compared to being an employee when you go and join a solicitors firm. So, in the BVC course, do they teach you things about being self-employed? So, do they teach you any different aspects to, running your own practice?

[00:11:28] To an extent. Yes, but I would say certainly when I did it, and even now the training on those sorts of aspects tends to be a little bit lacking. One of the things I think, as a profession we could really improve upon is removing the focus, not entirely, but it's exclusively on black letter law when you study academic law.

[00:11:53] And when you do your vocational training although there are key components such as advocacy and [00:12:00] negotiation, opinion writing, et cetera, et cetera. As I know from years in practice now, there are also soft skills that you need to cultivate. There are client care aspects to the practice of being a barrister, which nobody really teaches you.

[00:12:16] You have to pick them up almost by a process of osmosis, just watching how other people do it, et cetera, et cetera. But to answer your question yet, the core aspects of being self-employed, what you need to do, record keeping, et cetera. Yes. Those things are certainly taught, but how to survive and how to thrive, how to develop your business, your brand, how to market, matters of client care.

[00:12:41] No, I think these things are really lacking in our training and it's really only once you're on the job and start thinking in terms of how to develop your own practice, that you start learning these things. 

[00:12:53] Lara Quie: [00:12:53] So, that's quite challenging then. Isn't it? Cause yes, there's a lot of soft skills and things that you need to learn and [00:13:00] it's good that you mentioned the client care aspects because at the end of the day you have clients and you need to make sure that you are developing those relationships and maintaining those going forward so, that you get referrals, et cetera. I'm wondering though, coming from Nottingham, and then finding a pupillage but also as a person of ethnic minority, tell me about how that was to find a place and how it was, choosing and did you feel like there was a sort of old school tie kind of environment? 

[00:13:30] Ravi Aswani: [00:13:30] That's a very big question, Lara. Okay. Let me break it down. Pupillage I had an idea. I wanted to practice in commercial law generally, but beyond that, I hadn't at the time given much thought to specialisms within commercial law. And I think we'll be coming on to discuss specialisms a little bit later. So, I'll park that for the moment. I picked a number of commercial chambers to apply to and was accepted by one, which was [00:14:00] great. It's incidentally, not where I am now, but it was a commercial set of chambers. Competition was tough back then. I think it's only become tougher in the two decades since then. And I'll tell you a little bit more about the pupilage experience in a moment, but just to complete the CV story, I completed pupilage but wasn't offered a tenancy where I had done it. And, as you can imagine, that came as a little bit of a shock to the system.

[00:14:29] As lawyers, inevitably, the system requires you to an extent to be overachievers. You have to be very, very good and excel at what you do. So, when something negative happens to you, I think you take it particularly badly. And what I did then was I worked at the Court of Appeal as a judicial assistant for six months, whilst I reassessed my career path and decided what I wanted to do. And this incidentally was a fantastic experience seeing [00:15:00] justice work from the inside. But experience, I would say taught me two important things.  One is that, yes, I definitely did want to be a barrister and wasn't going to be discouraged.

[00:15:11] So, I continued making applications during my time at the Court of Appeal, and during that time, the opportunity to join what was at the time Stone Chambers, now 36 Stone came up. I took it and I've never looked back since and second, it also taught me the value of having something slightly different on your CV.

[00:15:34] This was a big talking point and the fact that I was doing this judicial assistant role at the Court of Appeal when I had my interview at Stone Chambers, and later on, when I became involved myself in the administration of pupillage and saw impressive CV after impressive CV, after impressive CV, what I realized was certainly back then, the system encouraged a [00:16:00] homogeneity almost in candidates to the point of almost discouraging individuality. And everyone had certain boxes, which they perceive they needed to tick. And inevitably they were all ticked so, it meant differentiating out of the top 20% of the candidates on a paper sift was practically impossible but having something slightly unusual on your CV in those circumstances really stands out like a sore thumb.

[00:16:27] And although I think we've moved on from this kind of purely checkbox approach to CV sifting. Still, it's something I always mentioned to very young students who asked me for advice, just do something slightly different. It's a conversation piece for the interview. And you never know that may be the thing that makes you stand out from everybody else because on paper, all the students now are so, good.

[00:16:50] I dread to think where I would end up if I was trying to enter the profession today, but happily that's not something that I have to worry about now.  Going [00:17:00] back to pupillage and the second part of your query, the experience and fitting in or not.  Two things I think come out of my pupilage.

[00:17:11] One is as corny as it sounds, I feel very strongly about the proper training and mentoring of entrance into my profession. And that comes from a place of experience. My own experience of pupilage was poor. I don't blame any one person or any chambers or the commercial bar generally for it. I'm afraid this is just how things were for everyone in the late nineties and early noughties. We just weren't anywhere near as enlightened a profession as we are now about what the pupilage experience is really like.  Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there's no further room or need for improvement, but back then pupils really had it quite bad.

[00:17:53] And I think that the biggest issue was just a complete lack of structure. The pupil would [00:18:00] follow their pupil supervisor around, do his or her paperwork for the entire period go to hearings with them but there wasn't any thinking that had gone into it beyond that.

[00:18:09] So, it would be complete potluck as to what the pupil would and wouldn't see, what sort of drafting and advisory work they would get to do. There was never any feedback on the work. I mean, that sounds scandalous in 2021 to say that you were providing a training to people and not giving them any feedback on work, but that's how it was.

[00:18:29] So, there were new real opportunities to hone techniques, to iron out mistakes, et cetera. It's probably worse than that. The pupil would have no idea if they were making a mistake or not because absent any feedback, you just don't know whether you're doing it properly or not.  So, really it was a very vague kind of hope for the best learn by osmosis type of training. But I mean, frankly, looking back now, I think you can scarcely describe it as a training at all. And after that quite poor experience, I made [00:19:00] a promise to myself that if I were ever in a position as a pupil supervisor, myself, no pupil of mine would ever be able to give such negative feedback on their pupilage because I had been there, I know just how bad it is or can be if it's not done properly. And my pupils may tell you differently if you were to ask them, but I'd like to think I've lived up to that promise every time I've had a pupil myself. 

[00:19:24] And on your second point about the fitting in and the background, the legal profession, I would say in the bar in particular, tends to be slightly behind the curve in terms of developments geared towards equality, diversity, and inclusion.

[00:19:40] And even today, this is 20 years on from my pupilage, the bar is still far from reflecting the society that it serves. And diversity, I think means different things to different people in different contexts. But I think there are two things which are worth mentioning here. One [00:20:00] is, there's a big issue about social mobility, which I hadn't really thought about so, much at the time that I was a pupil myself.

[00:20:08] But again, looking around there was very much a kind of homogenous. Product which the commercial bar was looking for. And at times I often felt that I somehow snuck in without really meeting the required attributes. And was it a bit of a fraud and we'll come onto that in a moment. I think. But looking at where we are now, the track record on matters of social mobility is particularly poor.

[00:20:33] There are strategies which have been designed to tackle this. And I think this is one of the harder ones because social mobility isn't necessarily an obvious characteristic. I mean, we have had for some time initiatives on gender equality on racial equality, et cetera, et cetera. And, they have had some success and obviously it's much more tangible.

[00:20:57] You can see those sorts of things in action [00:21:00] and you can see those characteristics in people much more than you can on something like social mobility. But I'm pleased to say that as a chambers, we've done two things recently trying to improve this. So, I think the jury is perhaps still out as to how successful they have been.

[00:21:15] But let me just mention them. Last year, we, as a chambers launched an advocacy competition, which doesn't depend upon a CV. All candidates submit a three-minute clip of themselves doing a plea in mitigation, and they're judged purely on that without any reference to any CV. And that has received a lot of interest in a lot of good feedback from the market.

[00:21:37] The second thing we have done is we have started redacting university information from CVS. For the papers for interview. Now that's not without controversy, it's quite a blunt tool actually. But the thinking behind it is that the use of say Russell group university attendance as a scoring [00:22:00] criterion could hold social mobility back for a number of reasons, private school domination less predictable careers advice and encouragement, coaching on interview technique, et cetera, in a state education compared to the private sector, et cetera. And the numbers don't lie. Although they do generalize.

[00:22:20] Some ethnic groups tend to be disproportionately affected by the factors I'm talking about on social mobility, which militates against success. And although I think the bar has done reasonably well in recent years in attracting from certain minority ethnic backgrounds Attracting black talent, I think has still proved stubbornly difficult.

[00:22:43] And this has really come to the fore in the last couple of years with Black Lives Matter. I think the bar has realized perhaps somewhat belatedly, but it's the welcome thing that the realization has occurred, that more positive initiatives need to be taken to see what can be done about this. I [00:23:00] don't have the statistics or the outcome from our last pupillage review or cycles so, I can't tell you what effect the redaction of the university has had. But I'm certainly eagerly, awaiting to see if that has made any difference. 

[00:23:17] Lara Quie: [00:23:17] Well, that sounds wonderful that you're actively thinking about ways to encourage social mobility, but it's true that particularly in the bar, social mobility is a huge factor. And especially in criminal matters, it's important that people are reflecting the society that they live in as well and understand the general society.

[00:23:36] So, we can definitely agree that encouraging as many people as possible to consider the bar as a career would be very important.  And I suppose things like actively going into secondary schools and talking about life as a barrister is one of the most powerful first steps because often young people, they're just not exposed to that world at all. Apart from [00:24:00] TV programs, which these days, Ravi, are things like "Suits". So, not "Ally McBeal" anymore.  That's what they see, but meeting people like you and actually feeling that you're human and accessible and perhaps not from a super privileged background, like they imagine. So, that's really great to hear that you're implementing change in that way.  And so, it's fascinating that you’re a people supervisor yourself and you see these bright, young things coming through. What would you say then is your advice to someone right now who's thinking of applying or they're thinking about the difference between life as a barrister or life as a solicitor, now that you know, a whole bunch of solicitors and what lifestyle they have compared to yours, what would your advice be for them?

[00:24:47] Ravi Aswani: [00:24:47] Well, I think it would be two-fold. One is I wouldn't want to shirk away from describing the challenges of being a self-employed barrister, those remain. And I'll say something about that in a [00:25:00] moment which dovetails with some of the things we've discussed already. And secondly, I think it would be useful just to make sure that anyone in that position has just done their research thoroughly. And let me deal with that second point first, because that's shorter. So, I always encourage people to get some experience, even if they're dead set on being a barrister. I always say to them, look, it's an obvious interview question that.

[00:25:29] Well, you say you want to be a barrister, Ms. So-and-so, but looking at your CV, you haven't done any experience in a solicitors firm. So, how have you ruled it out without having any information as to what it's like? And of course, when you put it like that to a young person, they immediately realize actually that's a very good point.

[00:25:47] So, I always say, look, even if you're a hundred percent sure it's not for you. Just go and do it. You never know. One, you might actually like it and decide, well, actually this is what I want to do, not be a [00:26:00] barrister. But two, it also shows anyone looking at your CV a couple of years down the line that actually, this is someone who's explored everything seriously, who has done their research, who has spent time with solicitors, as well as with barristers to see what exactly they would like to do.

[00:26:17] And one of the things which, I think this is not necessarily exclusive to law. This is all pervasive. Is that interview technique has changed over the past 20 years. It's a bit more systematic and methodical than it used to be. And so, everyone wants examples every time you give an answer to something, if you can show an example in your lived experience on your CV as to how or why you've reached a particular choice about your life, it just looks much more impressive.

[00:26:49] So, I always say to people, talk to other people, if you're sure you want to be a solicitor to try and do some mini pupillages, if you're sure you want to be a barrister, try and do some vacation placements with solicitors. [00:27:00] Those are very, very useful things. I've got a list, I guess we'll come to this at the end of the tips, I've put together as a general advice for younger lawyers, but let me, before we get to that, speak a little bit more about the challenges that can be encountered in being a self-employed barrister. 

[00:27:18] Well, the first thing, this goes back to what we were discussing earlier, Lara, is the training. I think it's not just of barristers actually, I think it's true of solicitors as well to a certain extent at any rate, it focuses very much on black letter law and we don't pay sufficient regard to soft skills and matters of client care.

[00:27:37] And one of the biggest challenges I've found as a self-employed barrister in particular. It's a little bit easier I think if you're in a solicitors firm where you've got the firm's reputation to hang off and obviously if you're in a large commercial set of chambers, to some extent you'll have the Chamber's reputation, but at the end of the day, you're self-employed individuals.

[00:28:00] [00:27:59] And you have to realize that actually from day one, you need to be building a reputation. And in turn a network of clients who will then be a source of repeat work throughout your career. At the risk of generalizing about this, I think barristers have historically been pretty bad at that business side of the profession.

[00:28:18] And in commercial law, this is particularly important. Not just because clients are becoming increasingly savvy. They look at directories, they look you up on LinkedIn, et cetera, et cetera. But allied with the fact that there's increased competition for the work from very, very highly qualified people in every chambers.

[00:28:36] I think barristers really need to be almost a bit more solicitor-like these days in their approach to client care and making sure that everybody is properly taken care of. But of course, the flip side of a challenge is an opportunity. And if you are doing things that relatively few of your peers are doing, then I think you really, really stand out much more than you might [00:29:00] otherwise.

[00:29:00] And so, let me highlight two points.  Both of which are passions of yours as well. So, first is a nod to LinkedIn, which I know we're both great fans of, I joined LinkedIn in 2004. I had to look it up. I knew it was something like that. And this was long, long before it was the Leviathan it is now. But from that time, I very slowly but surely started building an online presence, posting content, which I thought might be relevant and of interest to people.

[00:29:31] LinkedIn for lawyers is probably a topic for a podcast all by itself. So, I won't say much more about it than that. Save that if there are any doubters out there who might question the value of an online presence and following, I have had two arbitration hearings this year in substantial arbitrations and both those instructions in slightly different ways came about via LinkedIn.  It's possibly overstating the importance of LinkedIn. Of course I might've got them [00:30:00] without having that presence, but it appears on both occasions to have at least sealed the deal. And the second highlight I wanted to make I wanted to make a nod to Singapore, again, a place we are both great fans of, although I think this point applies to all foreign business development.

[00:30:17] I have been before, at least the disruption of the pandemic. I have been visiting Singapore and India. Once a year or twice a year for longer than I can remember now and where possible I would combine those trips with a conference or a hearing. But even if I didn't have any such commitments like that, I would try without fail to go.

[00:30:38] Why? Well it's because the personal touch is so, important. Dropping in to visit people, giving them an update on a recent English case, catching up over a coffee or a beer. As I always tell those who I train or I mentor. The importance of the seemingly little things can't be underestimated. This is the [00:31:00] cement that builds relationships and builds careers.

[00:31:02] It's that personal touch. It's making the effort to visit people. And if I could just take a moment to go off on a tangent on this. About five years ago, a prominent Indian law firm hither to unknown to chambers, instructed me on a very large commercial arbitration, which was going to end up in a substantial hearing.

[00:31:23] And a few people must have heard about this, obviously, no one breaches confidentiality, but the clerk may have mentioned that I'd had a substantial arbitration instruction come in and someone popped their head around my door. I remember this very vividly and said, "Oh, you're so, lucky, Ravi, you've got that completely random instruction from those prominent Indian lawyers."

[00:31:45] I had to pick him up on this. It wasn't luck and it wasn't random at all. This is a very tangible example of reaping the benefits of years, years of business development, trips to India, meeting [00:32:00] people, establishing a rapport. You'll know this better than me, Lara, but in so, many Asian cultures, it's the relationship, which is first and foremost.

[00:32:08] And, it's only once that relationship has developed to a sufficient level that the work will come, and it will come, it surely will come, but it requires effort and a long-term planning commitment to get there. And the other challenge I mentioned. And this isn't really to scare mentees off in a way it's to show them that we've actually come some way in the past 20 years.

[00:32:32] But as I mentioned before, the bar still is lagging a little bit behind society at large in terms of being reflective. And it certainly wasn't any better 20 years ago. It was worse. And as I mentioned before for probably the first half of my career to date, the first 10 years I did periodically have feelings that maybe I didn't belong and that somehow fluked my way into this career and overachieved by doing so. And I didn't know it at [00:33:00] the time because we don't have as much learning about these things, but this was classic imposter syndrome.

[00:33:06] And I learned to overcome this by reminding myself, I did deserve my place at the bar. I was there on merit and I knew my stuff. And I guess I became more determined to stick things out because I knew that things would slowly change as they have. And. When I started out decisions as to who was instructed as counsel were, I mean, this is by no means universal, but certainly in a considerable proportion of solicitors firms, those decisions were taken by somewhat old school, a homogenous group of solicitors who very much did things in their own image.

[00:33:44] And I think sometimes may even have had an Oxford or Cambridge education as a requirement for a barrister to be instructed to do work. Now that's changed completely in the last 20 years. I'm happy to report. Solicitors don't use such old-fashioned ways of [00:34:00] deciding who they're going to instruct.

[00:34:02] And indeed, the people who I was working with as trainees, when I was a pupil in my junior years are now the partners who decide who gets the work. So, life has changed very, very much now. And again, today, 20 years ago, we didn't necessarily have terms or awareness of things like affinity bias. Now we know that these things exist, and they can be called out and something can be done about them.

[00:34:28] But when it's happening to you and there's no recognized terminology or identification, it can be a bit disconcerted.  But I think the lesson from all of that is to stick it out. Be confident in your own ability and your merit and things do eventually work out very, very well. 

[00:34:48] Lara Quie: [00:34:48] Well, it's very good to hear that. Because I think that imposter syndrome, as you mentioned, is a huge thing in law. And particularly among women actually high achieving women who [00:35:00] think that they don't fit in because often, they will look around a room of men and they're the only one at the table, for example.

[00:35:07] So, hearing you, someone so, accomplished, admitting and being very open about this imposter syndrome, I think is really good.  And thank you for sharing that because what’s better to know is the fact that you've actually felt like you've, overcome it. And can look at what you've achieved and look at the concrete facts.

[00:35:26] And when we're talking about imposter syndrome, it's very important to not be so, much focused on yourself and comparing yourself to others all the time, looking for approval from others. It's about being objective, stepping back, looking at yourself as though you were a third party and saying, goodness, this person achieved this, they managed to go to that university, and they got that degree. Then they went to this pupilage and then they went to that chambers and goodness, they've got this case and, literally letting the facts speak for themselves.

[00:35:56] But again it's tied with perfectionism as well. though, isn't [00:36:00] it? The high achievers and the competition that exists in the law, everybody striving to be better and better, and everybody so, academic, as you mentioned before as well. Many lawyers are very prone to ridiculously high standards that are basically unachievable for anybody.

[00:36:17] And then trying to achieve those themselves, then falling short, feeling like a failure, but anybody standing back, even themselves, we always say, treat yourself like you would your best friend. If they didn't manage this.  Would you scold them and say that they're a failure? And they always say, "Well, no that was pretty difficult, it's incredible that they even got this far." It's like exactly. So, be kind to yourself and put things into real perspective.   

[00:36:43] But let's talk about your specialisms and your move towards the commercial courts.  And also, you have such a wide variety of industries and sectors as well. So, tell us about that. 

[00:36:57] Ravi Aswani: [00:36:57] Yeah Very often people [00:37:00] have a very defined plan for developing specialisms. But very often these things happen by accident, really. And when we get them to my tips for young lawyers in the final section, you'll see that one of the tips is not to specialize too early.

[00:37:15] And I'll explain why when we deal with that. But. As I mentioned before, I realized I was interested in commercial law, but beyond that, didn't really have much of an idea when I started out in pupillage what I might like to end up doing. And it just so, happened that I spent my formative years at the bar as a shipping lawyer, because early on I worked with a lot of people who happened to do a lot of shipping and shipping is quirky.  There are certain things which are not straightforward for those unaccustomed to looking at them. Where do you find the answer? How does this particular contractual relationship work? Et cetera, et cetera. But once you have developed the [00:38:00] core knowledge of how the pieces of the jigsaw fit together, it becomes a fascinating area of practice rich with all sorts of factual and legal issues.

[00:38:11] And I spent my first few years doing exclusively shipping law and. Almost without me realizing it was happening, shipping law was actually preparing me to be a commercial lawyer, generally in most areas, just because of its sheer breadth or depth. And as a shipping lawyer, you need to know about injunctive relief, which is sometimes necessary on a very urgent basis because of the international aspects you need to know about private international law.

[00:38:43] Your law of contract and your law of tort knowledge have to become quite well-developed along with other things. And you learn a lot about the interplay between litigation and arbitration. And I realized that actually I'd become quite a rounded commercial lawyer without realizing it, [00:39:00] but I wasn't leveraging it in anything like an efficient way in order to break into other areas of practice, which I then realized I was very well prepared to turn my hand to.

[00:39:11] So, about 12 years ago, I made a concerted effort to branch out into more general commercial dispute resolution, which increasingly these days means arbitration international arbitration rather than litigation. And I would say nowadays, I spend roughly half my time each year spent between shipping and non-shipping international commercial arbitration.

[00:39:35] And that really could be anything. So, going back to the two hearings in 2021, I've mentioned so, far- the LinkedIn hearings, if you will, one involved a mining operation in Eastern Europe and one involved the hospital construction project in a West African country. So, completely different, completely far removed.

[00:39:55] But like I said, when you end up cutting your teeth in an area, [00:40:00] which is so, broad you can, after a while, turn your hand to most commercial disputes. And I'm very, very happy with the way it's worked out for me and the balance I now have.

[00:40:15] Lara Quie: [00:40:15] That's very interesting how you say that, although you felt like you were in the shipping niche actually within it, it had such a breadth that you could turn your hand to other things as well. And now that your commercial practice has really expanded into all these other actually sort of related areas. But I remember when I was first faced with the difference between "wet shipping" and "dry shipping" and all these bills of lading and all sorts of, as you say, rather technical terminology, but once you were in it, it was something that was actually, not as complicated as it at first seemed.

[00:40:52] Let’s talk about mentoring, because I know that you're really passionate about it, but I'm wondering about your actual experience [00:41:00] yourself as a mentee. Tell us about mentors you've had and what benefits you have gained. 

[00:41:05] Ravi Aswani: [00:41:05] Thanks, that's a very interesting question. I think I have certainly had the benefit of the advice of more senior practitioners. I would say it's been on a much much more informal basis. Certainly, when I started out that there were very, very few official mentoring schemes, but one of the great traditions of the self-employed bar is looking after junior members of chambers. And I've always felt very fortunate that at Stone Chambers I've been very, very well supported from the top of the board downwards. As we say, from the most senior QC. We've always had a great open-door policy and it's one of the things that I'd really missed during the lockdown is the ability to just go across the corridor or pop my head around a colleague's room and just bounce a question off them.

[00:41:59] Of course you can [00:42:00] call or email someone from home, but somehow you just don't do it because you feel like it might be a intrusion into their day. Whereas if you're in the same office, somehow it works okay.  And one of the great things about the bar, actually, even when I started was that there was very much this almost unwritten code that you looked after new entrants into the profession.

[00:42:24] And I have certainly had the benefit of that. And I'd like to think I've paid it forward as well. But. It's one of the things the bar actually does very, very well in terms of making sure that people are looked after, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that extends not just to senior members of chambers, but also to the clerks.

[00:42:46] Again, I can't speak about the bar generally. I can speak about my chambers, but I feel I've been fortunate over the course of my career to have had clerks who've been interested in my business development. Who have been keen to support me when I [00:43:00] decided I didn't just want to do shipping. I wanted you to branch out into other things, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:43:05] And I think again, going back to the main point about the bar as a whole, the model, the business model, in this regard works very, very well. I mean, there are a hundred things I'd change about it, but this one definitely is not one of them. It is set up in a way which does mean you get a lot of support.

[00:43:24] Lara Quie: [00:43:24] Great. Well, let's get on to your tips and your advice for younger people. 

[00:43:30] Ravi Aswani: [00:43:30] Thanks, Lara. So, I spent some time thinking about this because I wanted to make sure I said everything I wanted to for everyone who's listening to whom these things may be of some use and application to where they are in their career now.

[00:43:45] And I came up with six things, which I'll go through. One is first don't listen to the naysayers.  All aspiring barristers in particular, have people predicting the demise of the bar. They have [00:44:00] possibly people trying to put them off. Maybe saying it's not for you, you're not of the right background.

[00:44:06] You haven't been to the right university, et cetera, et cetera. And I always say to people look, don't listen to the naysayers. I'm not saying it's easy, it's difficult for everybody but if you are talented, if you are hardworking, there will be a place for you if you stick at it and try to find it. 

[00:44:24]The second tip I have, again, it may sound a little bit corny, but when you get to later stages of your life, when you look back on earlier stages, I think it was Mark Twain who said that it's always the things you didn't do that you regret, not the things that you did. And there are so, many opportunities available now to young lawyers: to do master's programs may be in a foreign university, to do international mooting competitions, to take international secondments, if they're solicitors or at law firms. And I always say to people take advantage of all the [00:45:00] things, because it's easy when you're young, it's easy when you're free of commitment and responsibility, but life changes very quickly as you get older and doing all those things, five or 10 years later, it just may not be practical.

[00:45:14] Three. I always say to my pupils: always add value in everything that you do, and this is part of cultivating a user-friendly approach to what you're doing, but always think before you click send. How have I made my client's life easier with this advice? Anybody can come up with a very detailed academic analysis, but if at the end of the day, it doesn't present the client with its commercial options and the pros and cons of each one, they probably don't particularly care that you've read every case on this topic since 1886, because it doesn't help them.

[00:45:51] Fourth, always make it a pleasure for people to work with you. I guess that goes back to the soft skills people skills and networking [00:46:00] point. And as I always say to my mentees, think of it in this way. You are not doing anyone a favour by letting them instruct you. They are really doing you the favour by trusting you with their work.

[00:46:15] So, don't abuse that trust. But try to foster a relationship and make sure that your work product is up to the standard whereby they want to come back. I think the old adage you sometimes see that your network is your net worth really has some truth behind it. And so, I always say develop a strong and loyal client base early on in your career.

[00:46:39] And the chances are that many of those clients will then follow you throughout your career, even from say big law to a smaller law firm or from one chambers to another. It's a people's thing at the end of the day. Isn't it? If you cultivate that relationship, then people will follow you. And that's so, important.

[00:46:57] The fifth point is, and it [00:47:00] goes back to what we were discussing about specialisms. Don't specialize too early. This is a 40 plus year career. If you stick with it. And I think in the early years, it is useful to try and get exposed to as many different areas of law and types of clients as you possibly can.

[00:47:14] Because that will broaden your experience. It will broaden your awareness of so, many different areas of law, but also put you in an informed position about directions you may wish to go to in the future when you do specialize. 

[00:47:29] And six, then finally, you've got to be in it for the long haul. Like I said, this is a relationship process with clients. This is a career path, which you've got to measure in decades, not years, and it can be done if you stick at it. If you have a plan, if you put all the groundwork in and make sure that as well as doing the work well, which, I mean, that's a given, you've got to do that, but as long as you look after the people who instruct you give them a good client experience, they will keep coming back.

[00:47:59] [00:48:00] But as I said to one person recently, who'd come back from a trip to Singapore and two weeks later had complained that none of the people he'd visited had sent him any work. You can't go on a trip once and expect an instant tangible benefit. You've got to go again and again and again, and again.

[00:48:16] Develop that rapport develop the relationship. The work will follow at the end of the day, but you've got to be in it from day one for the long haul. 

[00:48:24] Lara Quie: [00:48:24] That's fantastic advice, Ravi. I think these are absolute gems that any lawyer, not just young lawyers, but any lawyer can certainly take to heart and should put into practice.   I love the idea, always make it a pleasure for people to work with you. And add value at all times. Certainly, that was something that I used to really emphasize to the solicitors. And it is that never take anything for granted, work really hard on those relationships and yes, be in it for the long haul.

[00:48:55] Just like dating. You are not going to get a marriage proposal on that first date. [00:49:00] Right?  Ravi, where would be the best place to reach you if anyone wants to get in touch? 

[00:49:05] Ravi Aswani: [00:49:05] Well, as I've already mentioned, Lara, I'm quite an active LinkedIn user, so, that's probably the place to look. If anyone wants to search for my profile, if you just look for Ravi Aswani, it should be one of the first ones that come up.

[00:49:18] Lara Quie: [00:49:18] Perfect. You'll be inundated by requests. It's been really wonderful to speak to you today, Ravi. Thank you so, much for your time. 

[00:49:26] Ravi Aswani: [00:49:26] Thank you so, much, Lara, for the opportunity. And also I really appreciate your questioning style. I think we may have a future Michael Parkinson on our hands yet. 

[00:49:36] Thank you very much. 

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