It's Raining Raincoats with Dipa Swaminathan, AGC at Singtel - Episode 24

In Episode 24 of The Legal Genie Podcast, your host, Lara Quie, is in conversation with Dipa Swaminathan, Assistant General Counsel at Singtel in Singapore. 

Dipa was educated at the National Law School of India University and Harvard Law School. She is admitted in New York, England & Wales, and India. She has substantial experience in project finance, corporate finance, general corporate, M & A, telecommunications, cybersecurity, technology, ICT, and IoT. 

Dipa spent several years in private practice with leading US and UK law firms before moving in-house. Dipa is famous in Singapore for being the founder of a multi award-winning welfare initiative called “It's Raining Raincoats”.

She founded this ground up movement six years ago in 2015 to support and champion migrant workers in Singapore and work towards their greater integration into the broader community. She now manages over 1000 volunteers island-wide and has improved the lives of thousands of migrant workers. Dipa has been recognized by Tatler magazine as one of Asia's 100 Most Influential People in the impact space.

She was recognized by Singapore Women's Weekly as one of the Greatest Women of Our Time. Dipa is also the winner of the inaugural Singtel Heroes Award in 2019 and the President's Volunteerism and Philanthropy Award in October 2020. She is a working wife and mother of two sons, and she has a passion for interior design.

I hope that you enjoy the conversation.

You can find out more about It’s Raining Raincoats here on their Facebook page.

You can follow and connect with Dipa Swaminathan on LinkedIn here.

Also:

·         If you liked this episode, please rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

·         Look out for the next episode coming soon.

You can connect with Lara Quie as follows:

·         On LinkedIn here

·         Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

·          If you have a question, you can e-mail Lara at Lara@LaraQAssociates.com

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

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Transcript

The Legal Genie Episode 24 with Dipa Swaminathan

[00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for joining me, Lara Quie, for the Legal Genie Podcast. 

[00:00:27] Following my career as a corporate lawyer at Dentons and DLA Piper, I reinvented myself as an entrepreneur. And then as Asia Pacific Head of Business Development at Duane Morris. 

[00:00:39] After a life event introduced me to the world of executive coaching, I set up my own consultancy, where I coach lawyers, leaders, and founders on how to design their best life. 

[00:00:51] I coach on building one's book of business, personal branding, LinkedIn skills, growing self-confidence and how to get to the next level. 

[00:01:01] If you are looking for someone with whom to share your challenges and who can help you move forward, if you are stuck, then reach out to me through my website www.laraqassociates.com. 

[00:01:13] This podcast is intended to give you an insight into the lives and careers of movers and shakers in the legal industry. 

[00:01:20] I ask my guests to share their best advice with you that I hope you will find helpful in your legal journey. 

[00:01:27] Please rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts to help us reach more people who may find it helpful. 

[00:01:33] I hope that you will enjoy the conversation. 

[00:01:38] Lara Quie: Hello, and welcome to Episode 24 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. Today, I'm delighted to be in conversation with Dipa Swaminathan, Assistant General Counsel at Singtel here in Singapore. Dipa was educated at the National Law School of India University and Harvard Law School.

[00:02:02] She is admitted in New York, England, and Wales and India. She has substantial experience in project finance, corporate finance, general corporate, M & A, telecommunications, cybersecurity, technology, ICT and IoT. Dipa spent several years in private practice with leading US and UK law firms before moving in-house. Dipa is famous in Singapore for being the founder of a multi award-winning welfare initiative called It's Raining Raincoats.

[00:02:32] She founded this ground up movement six years ago in 2015 to support and champion migrant workers in Singapore and work towards their great integration into the broader community. She now manages over 1000 volunteers island wide and has improved the lives of thousands of migrant workers. Dipa has been recognized by Tatler magazine as one of Asia's 100 most influential people in the impact space.

[00:02:59] She was also recognized by Singapore Women's Weekly as one of the Greatest Women of Our Time. Dipa is also the winner of the inaugural Singtel Heroes Award in 2019 and the President's volunteerism and philanthropy award in October 2020. She's a working wife and mother of two sons, and she has a passion for interior design.

[00:03:22] So, welcome to the show, Dipa.

[00:03:24] Dipa Swaminathan: Thank you for having me, Lara. It's very sweet of you. 

[00:03:28] Lara Quie: Well, we like to start at the beginning. So, I'd love to know a bit about your family background and where you grew up. 

[00:03:34] Dipa Swaminathan: Well, I grew up in Bangalore India, which is a big sort of thriving metropolis in south India. And I'm an only child, so I don't have any siblings.

[00:03:44] I had a very middle-class upbringing and my parents always believed in simple living and high thinking. So, there were great conversations around the dinner tables. I don't remember any discord growing up. My parents were [00:04:00] very sort of calm people, very unlike me.

[00:04:02] And what I remember most was having a lot of space to spar, intellectually, to debate, to put forward my own views, however contrarian they might have been to my parents, and they never stopped me from moving in a particular direction or thinking in a particular way. I was given a lot of room to be very independent. And even if I did things that they didn't approve of, there was never a block. There would be maybe a discussion at the dinner table about how that's probably not a wise thing to do, but I was never told you cannot do this, and you cannot do that.

[00:04:38] Which I quite marvel at even now as a mother, because I find myself blocking my kids a lot of the time and telling them that's not right. And you shouldn't do this, and you shouldn't do that. I feel now that my parents were so progressive even for that time in how they raised me. And I'm so grateful for that as I grow older myself. 

[00:04:58] Lara Quie: Sounds like a wonderful [00:05:00] and supportive childhood with a lot of intellectual stimulation, which is great. And so that takes me on to what prompted you to study law in the first place? 

[00:05:10] Dipa Swaminathan: Well, I come from a family of lawyers. Neither of my parents took up law, but I have a cousin and an aunt. My grandfather was a lawyer. There were a lot of lawyers in the family and my cousin who's about 20 years older than me, he could almost be my uncle, was sort of my mentor growing up. I really looked up to him and I would spend summer holidays with him, I would just sort of hang around his office, and it was a great environment.

[00:05:36] I loved seeing what he did, and he was a litigator. So, all the lawyers would gather there in the evenings, and they'd discuss these cases and go over what happened in court that day. And I found all of that fascinating. And I was also a big fan of Perry Mason books. So, really it was just very simple.

[00:05:53] It was just a combination of my cousin and Perry Mason books. And at that time growing up in India, there were pretty [00:06:00] much two main choices, either engineering or medicine if you did well in school. And I had no interest in either of those. So, law was what I decided to do, and I now sort of marvel at it because I tell my kids that I never had any plan B. The national law school was a newly set up law school around the time that I joined it and there was an all-India entrance exam, which was very new for law schools in India at the time. Before that it was number applied with number admitted to the study of law.

[00:06:29] So, the National Law School was the first school that had an entrance exam from which they selected the top 60. And I wrote it. But I have no idea what would have happened if I hadn't got in, because I really didn't have a plan B. Life was so simple in those days. So, that's how that happened. I wrote it. I got in and it was a five-year program, and it was amazing. 

[00:06:53] Lara Quie: So, at that point in time, thinking about law study and what you actually went into when [00:07:00] it came to practice. What do you feel about what you were taught at law school compared to what you needed when you started as a trainee?

[00:07:09] Dipa Swaminathan: Well, I didn't start as a trainee. Actually, my first job was in Singapore because I came to Singapore soon after I finished law school. I think like a majority of all of us, who've been through law school what you need in practice, or when you're actually start working, might be quite different to what you studied, especially for me, because my education was in country A and my first work experience. In fact, my entire work experience has only been in Singapore. But I think what law equips you to do is to think like a lawyer and that's what our director of law school would always say. That it's all about thinking like a lawyer. And I think as long as you're equipped with those skills, you're well equipped for your first day.

[00:07:51] Lara Quie: Given that your cousin was a lawyer, I would imagine that having been to law school in India, you might have thought about joining his practice? [00:08:00] What happened to bring you to Singapore? 

[00:08:03] Dipa Swaminathan: Well, actually even while I was in law school I, met my husband at a university fest and we kind of hooked up. And he was going off to the US to do his Masters. So, he went to Vanderbilt university in Tennessee. And so, I took a year off to go and be with him at Vanderbilt. I was accepted to Vanderbilt Law School as an exchange student. I went there and I couldn't afford to pay the fees because for an exchange student, they don't give you fee waivers.

[00:08:32] And the fee for one year at the time in the early nineties was $10,000 US dollars which, we couldn’t afford. So, I instead took a year off from law school. I wanted to be with him in Vanderbilt. I'd already gone there. So, I waited tables in a Tennessee's steak house for a year in Nashville, Tennessee, and it was fantastic.

[00:08:53] And it's one of my dreams now actually, to go back to that restaurant, have a meal and leave a hundred dollars tip [00:09:00] because somebody did that for me when I was a waitress there. So, I had an amazing experience and then my husband moved to Singapore because he got a job here. Which is what sort of formed my decision to come here.

[00:09:12] I went back to India, finish my law degree, and then moved here straight away. 

[00:09:17] Lara Quie: I see. And so how did you transition when you first arrived in Singapore into getting a training contract and actually qualifying? 

[00:09:26] Dipa Swaminathan: Yeah, well I'm not qualified in Singapore. I'm qualified in New York, England and Wales and India. But I was completely green behind the years when I came here. I didn't know the scene here. Law firms and so on. So, I just did what any simpleton would do? I guess I opened up the yellow pages back then it was still the yellow pages. There was no sort of internet and Googling and all of that.

[00:09:51] So, I opened up the yellow pages and I applied to the top three law firms that I could see the biggest ads. One of them was Khattar Wong and they call [00:10:00] me for an interview and immediately offered me a job. But it was as a research assistant. So, I couldn't practice because I wasn't obviously qualified here.

[00:10:09] Actually at the time I wasn't even qualified in India because I had been so rash and in such a hurry to get to Singapore that I hadn't spent the half a day that it needed to go to the bar council and get qualified. I had my law degree. I was a twin gold medallist at the national law school, and it was a half a day's job to go to the bar council and get qualified, but I was so naive and in such a hurry to come here that I said I'm not going to practice in India now anyway, so I'll attend to it when I need to. And I just left. It's only after I came to Singapore and started working that I realized it makes such a difference, whether you called to any bar, a bar as opposed to not being called at all. 

[00:10:54] So, when I realized that. I mean for my first two years at Khattar Wong as a research associate, it [00:11:00] really didn't matter because even if I was qualified in India, I don't think I would have been able to do very much that was different. There were foreign associates at the time. But they were mainly China based and Malaysia based.

[00:11:12] So, as an India qualified lawyer, I don't think I could have done very much different. But I was in the knowledge management department at Khattar Wong. I had a fantastic boss. Who's now a very, dear friend of mine, Corinna Lim. She's the Executive Director of AWARE. And I learned so much under Corina about the work ethic in terms of how you write research papers.

[00:11:32] I remember the first time she asked me to research something. I went away and I did research it, but I came back, and I presented her something which had a bunch of conclusions. And she said, but why are you saying this? I said, "Because I think so." She said, "nobody's going to care. You know what I mean?

[00:11:48] She didn't say it that way, but the idea was that you don't just present conclusions just because that's what you think. Everything has to be backed up by solid research. So, I learned a tremendous [00:12:00] amount from Corinna. And at the end of two years, she got a Fulbright scholarship, and she was going away to Columbia university.

[00:12:07] And I didn't want to unnecessarily stay on without her. And it was around that time that I'd started interviewing and I got an amazing offer from White & Case, which is a US law firm. So, I went over to join White & Case. And as soon as I joined, they were having discussions with me.

[00:12:22] I joined as a paralegal again, because I wasn't qualified anywhere, but they were amazing. And within four months, they decided that they would sponsor my getting called in India as the first step. But as luck would have it by then, the rules in India to qualify had changed.

[00:12:38] It was no longer a half a day thing. It was a one-year process now because they had introduced a one-year apprenticeship. So, that was a complete curve ball because it meant I had to spend a year in India, my husband was working here obviously at the time, my job was with White & Case, but luckily White & Case had a regional practice.

[00:12:58] So, they were just starting up a huge [00:13:00] project finance deal in India. So, we came up with this arrangement where I would spend my time in India would fly into Singapore now, and then. But it enabled me to finish my apprenticeship. I did it with my cousin actually, because you needed to do it with a lawyer.

[00:13:14] So, I got a little bit of finally working with him in his office, but I was straddling three things. It was a very challenging and interesting time. As young lawyer, I was doing his work. I had to fill in the apprenticeship diary every single day about what I'd done, and I was working on White & Case matters and I was flying to Dubai and Singapore as needed.

[00:13:34] But it was super exciting, as a young professional doing all of these different things super stretched but I loved it, but the irony at the end of it all was I finished the apprenticeship. I got called to the bar in India. And then I went to Bombay for the project finance deal that we were working in.

[00:13:52] And about a week later we were having a breakfast one morning in the lounge and I opened up the newspapers and India had [00:14:00] scrapped the one-year apprenticeship rules. So, it was like, the whole thing was designed just to screw up my sort of getting called. It was back again to the half a day thing. So, it was just, the weirdest thing. 

[00:14:13] Lara Quie: Wow. What a roller coaster and it just shows you that you shouldn't procrastinate, right? Actually, you should complete, yes. 

[00:14:23] Dipa Swaminathan: Never take for granted that rules are going to remain the same around something that you want to do with that is important. 

[00:14:30] Lara Quie: Right. Anyway, so you were at White & Case for nearly six years. And then by that time you mentioned project finance. So, was that what you began to specialize in? 

[00:14:42] Dipa Swaminathan: Yeah, I did a lot of project finance deals those were the heydays for project finance. I don't know if it's still is anymore. I don't do them now, but yeah, it was great. I mean, I did a lot of headline deals in the region. But I was part of the India practice group and at [00:15:00] White & Case at the time, the division was capital markets and everything else. So, I did everything else. I did M&A then the financial crisis hit. So, I did a bunch of Indonesian debt restructurings. So, yeah I did a whole variety of work, everything except capital markets.

[00:15:15] Lara Quie: And then you moved as a senior associate to Sherman and Sterling another US firm.

[00:15:20] Dipa Swaminathan: Oh, that was a later on. So, I then went to Harvard. So, during my time at whiten case, in addition to sponsoring my getting called in India, they also sponsored my getting called in England and Wales. So, I went and wrote my conversion exams.

[00:15:36] Got qualified in England. But then at the end of six and a half years, somewhere in between my husband had done his MBA at INSEAD and I was kind of bitten by the bug to study some more because he enjoyed his stint in business school. So, I, and it had always been since I, kind of grew up as a lawyer at White & Case, which is a New York law firm.

[00:15:57] I did want to get called in New York. [00:16:00] It was just a personal thing I wanted to do. But because my first law degree was from India. I needed a bunch of us law school credits before I could sit for the New York bar exam. I couldn't just show up and write the bar exam. So, I figured I might as well do an LLM.

[00:16:14] So, I applied to the top 10 law schools in the US. And actually got into all of them, including Stanford, which only accepts 14. But I chose Harvard of course, because that had always been a bit of a dream of mine. So, I went to Harvard and then wrote the New York bar exam straight after I finished passed it.

[00:16:32] And then I came back and one of the partners from White & Case had moved to an English firm called Holman Fennick. So, that's where I moved. I was there for about three over years. I had both my babies while I was there and then subsequently, I moved to Sherman's because I kind of missed the U S law firm style of working.

[00:16:52] So, I went to Sherman's. It was great. I mean, it was a great team. They were doing tremendous [00:17:00] work, but I had two very young babies at the time, so it was a bit hard to manage private practice hours and two very, young babies at home. So, that's when I slowly started moving in house.

[00:17:12] Lara Quie: Yeah. Because you also went into knowledge management for a bit, was that 

[00:17:17] Dipa Swaminathan: That was, yeah, that was a part-time role. So, that's when I felt I needed to dial back my hours a little bit. I wasn't really prepared. I kind of thought I'd have my babies and not skip a beat and just carry on with my career.

[00:17:31] But I was not very well prepared, I must say. So, when I realized that I couldn't quite do justice to a full-on US or UK law firm, private practice hours, and being a mum I, felt I had to scale it back a little bit at work. 

[00:17:49] Lara Quie: So, tell me about your move into in-house with Motorola and your mindset at that time.

[00:17:57] Dipa Swaminathan: Emotionally it was a full-time role. Wasn't a part-time role, but [00:18:00] because it was in-house, the hours were more regulated. It was interesting because it was my first in-house move. And I guess I approached it initially with a little bit of a private practice mindset in the sense that I was still in my ivory tower.

[00:18:16] Clients would have to come to me if they wanted something. I didn't really make inroads into getting to know, the business I was like, well, I'm here as a lawyer. And if there's a legal issue. Come and talk to me, but otherwise so it was kind of a baptism by fire.

[00:18:32] I had to very quickly learn to adapt to having an in-house mindset. But it was an interesting time Motorola was then splitting up into two and I was with the mobile division, which wasn't really doing very well. But it was then acquired by Google. So, that was a very exciting time.

[00:18:51] But eventually Google sold it off to Lenovo and the whole business kind of wound up here anyway in Singapore. So, yeah, but [00:19:00] it was great as an in-house stint. 

[00:19:02] Lara Quie: So, tell me about your next move after that. 

[00:19:06] Dipa Swaminathan: Well, I then went to a private family office as a general counsel. And that was again great quality work. Because they were doing a lot of deals around the region and it dovetailed very nicely into my private practice work, because there were a lot of M&As, a lot of acquisitions, a lot of divestments. It wasn't a typical in-house everyday contracts review kind of work it's very kind of strategic high-level stuff.

[00:19:32] And it was all regional and I just loved that experience because I had a long rope. I could do things sort of my way. It was really good quality work. But then there was some restructurings going on within that group at the time. And it was around the time that I saw the position at Singtel and then I moved over. That was about seven years ago. 

[00:19:55] Lara Quie: Yes. You've had a long career with Singtel. So, tell me more about [00:20:00] in-house counsel and the kind of day-to-day and, what you recommend to any young lawyer wanting to move into the in-house space from private practice.

[00:20:10] Dipa Swaminathan: Well, I think the first thing is a bit of a shift in mindset. Because in private practice, you're the fee earner, you're the revenue generator and everything is set up around you for you to do what you do best. And the lawyers are the focus of the whole organization and everybody else is a support function for you.

[00:20:31] But when you move in house, you become that support function for the revenue earners, whoever they may be, right? The sales guys or whatever that business is doing. So, you're no longer a revenue earner but you're a cost centre. And so, the way you're perceived and the way you need to perceive yourself changes. You're there to really add value to the business.

[00:20:54] It doesn't matter if you've spent 20 hours reviewing contracts, you're not billing for that. At the end of the day, that [00:21:00] review has to produce something that enables the business to move forward. So, that shift in mindset I think is really important. 

[00:21:09] Lara Quie: So, what do you think are the ways that in-house counsel can prove this value add and that they are worth their salary?

[00:21:19] Dipa Swaminathan: Yeah, I think it, comes with every single deal every single sort of matter you're involved in within the business. I mean it's a sort of a tough balance to maintain because you can't just keel over backwards and do everything the business wants as well, because ultimately, you're a stakeholder for the entire organization.

[00:21:38] You want to make sure that the balance sheet of the organization, the shareholders. All of those are protected as well. So, it's a tough balancing act. Some of it, I think, comes with experience. But I think what young lawyers, I guess if they're moving in-house should focus on doing at least initially is to establish those relationships internally so that the business, [00:22:00] you earn that trust and you earn their confidence, but that has to be earned, right? I mean, that, that comes with time. 

[00:22:06] Lara Quie: Definitely within an in-house situation and any aspect of law, it's all about relationships. So, what, would be your advice to younger lawyers about how to develop good, solid, deep relationships with others? 

[00:22:23] Dipa Swaminathan: I think it depends on personalities. Some people just have high EQ and are able to do it very easily. You learn with time you might make mistakes. I think it's important to allow yourselves to make mistakes, but it's very important to then learn from those mistakes. But I think if you take it as a skill that you need, then lawyers are smart individuals and they will figure out I think quite quickly, what they need to do to succeed in a particular role, but it requires that investment. I think because sometimes younger lawyers might think, oh, I'm just here [00:23:00] for two years. I, I don't really need to sort of go too out of my way, which is fine too.

[00:23:07] That's the privilege younger lawyers have. But at the end of the day, I think lawyers are smart and all lawyers are smart and you, just need to be attuned to your workplace so that you understand what is needed from you and you apply yourself to that.

[00:23:25] Lara Quie: The Singtel team is a large one and you're in a leadership role. How have you learned leadership skills? What is it you've done that has helped you get to the position that you're in today? 

[00:23:38] Dipa Swaminathan: Well, it's actually not a very large legal team for an organization of its size. We're only about 16 or 15 lawyers with some staff in the legal department, we have other lawyers within the organization who have contract managers, who are also lawyers, but they just don't sit within the legal department. So, it's actually not a very large [00:24:00] team. I mean companies like Facebook have hundreds and hundreds of lawyers; we don't have that.

[00:24:05] But in terms of leadership skills, I think for me it's a very simple mantra. It's " treat others the way you would like to be treated". So, if as an employee if you would like from your boss to get sort of guidance when you need it, but also space to do what you need to do, not have somebody breathing down your neck.

[00:24:24] I think those are the things you need to do yourself as a supervisor or a manager to those you oversee. And again, I think I've refined my style over the years. I guess, I was kind of baptized by fire as a young lawyer growing up, I used to be thrown mark ups that had red all over it and spoken to in a loud voice.

[00:24:47] I mean, all of that has happened to me and you'll never repeat those kinds of mistakes again, but that's not how you do it these days. I think the world is a very different place. The workplace is a very different place.

[00:24:58] So, I think [00:25:00] it's, very important to treat everybody with a great deal of respect and understand the constraints that every team member goes through, but also just be there to provide mentorship and guidance when needed. 

[00:25:13] Lara Quie: Yes. It's very important for young people to have good mentors and people that they can ask for advice and guidance. And I think law can sometimes be a very competitive place where they don't necessarily feel they can ask their peers. So, it's having someone who's got your interests at heart and who can definitely help you from reinventing the wheel. I have created this podcast with that in mind for younger people who don't have a mentor, this podcast is here to enable them to learn from other people. So, what advice have you got for young lawyers of today? 

[00:25:54] Dipa Swaminathan: Oh gosh. That's such a broad question. I guess the advice [00:26:00] would be to find a workplace that you, enjoy I mean it's sometimes easy to want to keep up with others and do a particular thing just because that's, what is maybe expected of you or you think that's the more high profile role, but I think it's very important to be in a place that you feel secure in and you feel confident in you think you're growing yourself as a professional, but also contributing to the business, or it could be in private practice you're thriving, right? I mean, if you find a place where you're thriving, then you know, my recommendation would be to stay there and not jump ship just because something more exciting comes along.

[00:26:42] Because it's sometimes very hard to replicate a great experience in another place. I think that you're, set enough that you can springboard and obviously I'm not restricting anybody from, moving. Because there are times when a move might be exactly what is [00:27:00] needed.

[00:27:00] But I think that if you find that you're in a workplace where you're thriving, don't discount it lightly because it might not necessarily recreate itself in a new work environment. 

[00:27:14] Lara Quie: That's good advice. I think that it's very easy to see the grass is always greener to not really take stock and to appreciate what you have.

[00:27:25] And that's true, that things that are shiny and new and exciting can look good from a distance. And then you leave something. And it isn't until it's gone, that you actually realize what you had. So, yes, don't be in a hurry to move to the next thing. Okay. Great. Well, that's, great advice. So, let's move on to your amazing project, It's Raining Raincoats. Tell me the story about what first prompted you to start this initiative. 

[00:27:53] Dipa Swaminathan: Well, it's a story I've, told many times so apologies if any of your listeners have already heard it [00:28:00] or you yourself have already heard it. It was really a case of starting to notice the migrant workers, right?

[00:28:06] Because until that point in 2014 when the catalyst for It's Raining Raincoats occurred. I'd already lived in Singapore for what 2014, that would have been almost 20 years. I'd been in Singapore, and I'd never really noticed the migrant workers. I mean, of course they were there, but I hadn't really noticed them.

[00:28:27] But then in 2013, the Little India riots happened and that was big news. And so that's when I started to the paying attention to this group, and I felt a little sad that they were maligned as a group for the acts of a few. And I know what had happened in Little India, that there was a worker that was run over the other workers saw it in front of their eyes. I just felt they reacted in the heat of the moment. Obviously, there's no excuse for criminal activities and I'm not by any means, condoning it now then, [00:29:00] but I just felt, it was unfortunate that the whole lot of them were kind of maligned as a community following those incidents.

[00:29:08] And then I started noticing them and, I lived in a house back then and on really hot days I couldn't even walk the 15 steps from my front door to my car. It would be so burning hot in the afternoons. And I used to think, how do these guys do it? They work from 8:00 AM to sometimes 8:00 PM hot sun.

[00:29:28] Wearing all their full gear. And if I'm out in the hot sun for two hours, when I come back, all I want to do is like, take a cold shower turn on the TV, grab a cold beer or something. And it's like, they don't get to do that because they go back to cramped living quarters where it's probably equally hot. They don't have the benefit of large screen TVs or just lying on a bed.

[00:29:50] Or if they had a headache from that day, working in the sun, they can't call in sick the next day because they get docked a day's wages. So, all of that started working in my head and [00:30:00] I just felt a great deal of sympathy for them. But that didn't really translate to something it's not like I woke up one morning and said, oh, I'm gonna start something today.

[00:30:09] But what happened was really an accidental circumstance where I was driving home from the gym one day, And it was a pouring thunderstorm. And as I turned into my road saw these two workers on the side, migrant workers, crouched under a tiny piece of cardboard, soaking wet.

[00:30:28] And it was a street I lived on, and I drove past them thinking, oh gosh, that's so sad for them. And then something made me stop and I reversed and rolled down my windows and asked them to get in. It was pouring sheets of rain. And they were like surprised because there was a strange woman but because I speak Tamil I was speaking in Tamil and luckily one of them was from India.

[00:30:50] So, he understood, and that's always a bit of an ice breaker. So, I refused to move until they got in. So, they had little choice. So, they got in soaking wet. [00:31:00] I drove them home. And they sat in my front porch I gave them some of my husband's old t-shirts to change into and give them coffee, something to eat.

[00:31:10] And they sat there. We just left them there. They were just kind of sitting there chatting. And after the rain stopped, they said they would leave. And so, I wished them well. And I took a photo of them to put on Facebook to say that if workers ever are out in the rain, they should ideally have a raincoat or an umbrella because in Singapore, you never know when it's going to rain.

[00:31:30] They were a little uncertain that I took that photo. They said will we get in to any trouble. I said, look, I don't even know your names. I don't know the company that you work for. I'm not going to mention any details, but if you're worried, I'm a lawyer and here's my numbers. I just scrawled my, mobile number on a piece of paper and gave it to them.

[00:31:50] So, they took that and went off and I never heard from them. Until three months later on a Sunday morning, I got a call from the police to say that one [00:32:00] of those two guys, there was a Bangladeshi guy and an Indian guy. So, the Indian guy, his name is Murugan. I discovered later had tried to commit suicide the night before by trying to hang himself.

[00:32:11] And at the time attempted suicide was a crime in Singapore. It no longer is, but it was then, and he had therefore been arrested and so the police were calling me to say that the only number he had with him was mine. And so, would I be willing to come and post bail? So, I said, what about his employer?

[00:32:30] Surely, he should have his, so they said, yes, he did have his employee number for the employer was, nowhere to be found. He was in JB or something. He wasn't going to be coming and posting bail for this guy. So, they said it's a $2,000 bond. Are you willing to sign it?

[00:32:45] So, I said, of course especially when I knew that I was the only number this guy had, so I went to Jurong police division, where they told me to go by which time they had moved him to the mental hospital.

[00:32:56] So, then I had to take another taxi and go to the mental hospital. [00:33:00] And there were a bunch of policemen guarding the ward this time because this guy's now a criminal. And, but they did allow me to speak to him. 

[00:33:09] Because I insisted that I wanted to see him. So, this guy was like crouched he had grown a beard and he was just a shadow of the man I had seen before.

[00:33:18] And I said, "what happened?" And he said, he hadn't been paid his wages for six months. And he didn't know what to do. He had loan sharks hounding his family back home, and he was getting pressure from everywhere and he decided he would just end it all. So, I said, "look, I'm here now. I'm going to take care of things.

[00:33:34] Don't do anything foolish for the second time." And then I passed him a $50 note. I don't know why, but I did. But I think that's all the money I had with me at the time. But then I came out and the policemen guarding the ward. And I said to them, "look here, this guy is a victim really.

[00:33:51] He just didn't know what to do. I mean, the real culprit here is his employer who didn't pay him his wages and [00:34:00] for these guys," I said to those policemen, "these guys taking their life is a very real plan B because they have no other plan B. They don't have spare $200 lying in a bank account to pay for expenses should a contingency occur.

[00:34:14] They don't have a plan B. So, for them taking their lives if things hit a wall that they feel is impenetrable is a very real option. But I don't think they quite understood what I was going on about. So, I came back and wrote to the Police commissioner. I Googled the address, and I wrote to the police commissioner and I said all this, and I kept writing this every day I would send an email on this guy's case because I couldn't possibly forget it. And then a week later, I had a call from somebody at Jurong police division saying, Madam, firstly, can you please stop emailing us?

[00:34:47] But secondly, we're happy to let you know that we've dropped all charges against Murugan. He'll be free to go in a week he's just still getting some treatment and he's just still being observed but he will be free to go and [00:35:00] we've contacted the employer and we've made him pay Murugan all his back wages.

[00:35:05] So, I was thrilled, and then I was I let it be, but a couple of weeks later on a Sunday morning guess who appeared at my gate? It was Murugan all shaven clean and fresh faced. Happy relieved and very grateful. Right? And then his wife called me from India to thank me and said thank you for saving.

[00:35:27] I mean, I hadn't done that much really, but it was a revelation to me that, but just a few hours of my time. But I was able to change the circumstances for this guy. And I thought about what would have happened if I hadn't been there really?

[00:35:41] What would have happened to this guy? He would've probably just continued maybe behind bars then been deported. I mean, who knows? Right? So, that was what was an eye-opener for me that, but there are those of us who are in a position where we can communicate, we can write, we can speak on their behalf.

[00:35:59] And so [00:36:00] with a little investment of time and energy and thought you can make a very, measurable difference to the life of somebody who is a little more disadvantaged than you. And so that's when I started sort of helping these guys in my personal capacity whenever I could.

[00:36:17] And some of those stories went viral. The Singapore kindness movement picked up on it. They reached out and said why don't you start something? And that's how It's Raining Raincoats was born. 

[00:36:28] Lara Quie: Wow. It's a fantastic story. And I think the message behind it is the fact that. It was about an individual. You started to see migrant workers as a group, but you had suddenly an individual with a very significant story and where suddenly the opportunity to help him was there. And you acted on that, and you suddenly realized. My goodness, this injustice is going on behind the scenes and things are that bad that [00:37:00] he would consider taking his life.

[00:37:01] And of course the impact that has on his whole family as well. And you had seen him at the beginning where he was yes, he was working and he was wet, but he was clean shaven. He was alive. He was happy to have the things you'd given him. And he was just living his life, but then suddenly dramatic difference the way he looked.

[00:37:23] He was thin he didn't have any pay and he was feeling desperate. So, I think the contrast of the two, the fact that you'd seen the two ends of that situation was what spurred you into this action. And you've really been able to mobilize thousands of people to help you. What is it, do you think that suddenly has brought about this sudden interest in migrant workers?

[00:37:49] Dipa Swaminathan: Well, I think the change has come about slowly because I think from as early as 2016 and 17, we at It's Raining Raincoats [00:38:00] demonstrated very simple, imaginative ways in which people could interact with the migrant workers. I think a lot of people, a lot of Singaporeans, a lot of residents of Singapore, do feel a sense of gratitude to them and appreciate their contributions to Singapore.

[00:38:15] These are the guys who build our homes, our offices dig our roads, tar our roads, prune our trees. They make Singapore, you know what it is in terms of a functioning city, right? So, I think a lot of people feel that gratitude towards them want to show them their appreciation, but didn't quite know how, and maybe there was a little bit of a stigma in terms of what will happen if I talk to them, is it safe? Will they look at me rudely? If I offered them a smile or a gift? And so, I think what we did in the initial years and what we continue to do today is to show you the avenues by which Singaporeans can interact with them in very simple ways that it's not complicated.

[00:38:55] It's just a question of buying a Christmas gift or wrapping a tiger balm and passing it to them [00:39:00] or donating your pre-loved items or whatever it may be. So, I think the first thing was to break down some of those stigmas and that can be very addictive actually once you do it and you have that direct interaction and you see those smiles and you build those relationships with even just one worker, It just kind of hooks you.

[00:39:20] So, I think that has gradually been happening over the years. And then obviously in 2020 with everything that happened with COVID and the dorms and all the articles that were written about them. I think it opened a lot of people's eyes to how they lived and how they worked.

[00:39:38] And so I think that then brought about a second outpouring of support. And we've been very blessed because we have an amazing team of volunteers. We're all unpaid at It's Raining Raincoats. None of us get a salary. But the commitment from the volunteers is just incredible. They're just nothing short of professional.

[00:39:58] They don't treat this as [00:40:00] just some sort of must do, or it's not obligatory because we have nothing to offer them in return. Right? We don't want. We don't give goody bags. We don't give certificates. There's nothing we offer in return except for the opportunity to make a difference to help.

[00:40:16] So, therefore the people who come to volunteer with us are those who genuinely care about the migrant workers. So, when you have that genuine passion for this cause, and you apply yourself. Obviously, you're going to excel. So, I'm really, blessed with an amazing pool of volunteers.

[00:40:32] And honestly, It's Raining Raincoats now is no longer about me or I'm just a light touch individual in the universe, in the web that is It's Raining Raincoats. There are real stars for doing all the work. 

[00:40:47] Lara Quie: Yes. And you've received some substantial recognition for all your work with IRR. What has been the most rewarding aspect of this initiative for you personally? 

[00:40:57] Dipa Swaminathan: Oh, there are so many. So, [00:41:00] many I can't imagine my life without it now. Not in any particular order. The first is my team of volunteers, especially the core team they're like family to me.

[00:41:10] I mean, they are just so beloved to me. We exchange tons of messages every day and they're really a very, core part of my immediate village now. They're more than just volunteers, they're friends, they're family, really. So, that has been amazing. And, then the second is the thousands of people who, support us, right?

[00:41:31] Not just individuals. We have school groups, church groups, temple groups, restaurants, companies from really small SMEs, all the way to the largest banks and MNCs, law firms. I mean, it's an endless web of support that we have. From all of these people who come forward to enable us to do what we do.

[00:41:53] So, it just fills me with so much gratitude every day. And when there's talk of Singapore being racist or [00:42:00] apathetic. Yeah. I mean, there are elements of that. I'm not denying any of that, but I feel really blessed to see the other side of it, where people from all races.

[00:42:09] All walks of life. All ages we even have this autistic kid. He's just such a star volunteer. He obviously has a little bit of a learning disability, but he comes to our events and he's constantly messaging us because some of our events have stopped now.

[00:42:27] Heightened alert and other restrictions. So, he's constantly messaging us about when can he do it again? And he comes there every time when we have our events with an IRR t-shirt and he's out there applying himself and it just gladdens my heart so much when I see things like that this young man.

[00:42:45] Who has a challenge himself, but it, gladdens me that It's Raining Raincoats is able to give him that opportunity for him to come there and contribute. And I'm sure he gets a lot out of it, which is why he comes. He just enjoys it.

[00:42:58] And he's there every [00:43:00] time, half an hour before the start time. He's the first one there. The last one out his mom comes with. And they are just this amazing team. I have to give him a hug every time I see him. So, there are so many volunteers who message us in this way, right? To say, thank you for giving us the opportunity to help.

[00:43:19] It's so inspiring to see what It's Raining Raincoats does. So, it's wonderful that we're able to give the opportunity to a lot of people to contribute. So, that's the second thing. And the third thing is obviously the workers themselves. The thank you messages we get from them.

[00:43:35] So, many of my team members and myself we get messages saying, we'll never forget you for as long as we live, you did not know us. You came to help us. You've made a real difference in our lives, and we will pray for you and your family every single day. Those are the messages we get every single day.

[00:43:53] And it's not to be narcissistic, but it's just it just warms your heart to know that [00:44:00] there is somebody out there that you've touched and, that yeah, it's just really special. 

[00:44:05] Lara Quie: Wow, it sounds fantastic. So, where can people get in touch and support It's Raining Raincoats?

[00:44:12] Dipa Swaminathan: Well, we are on social media and social media is our face to the world because as I said earlier, we don't have any budget for ourselves, so we don't have paid staff. We don't have a marketing or comms budget or whatever, but we just run now social media pages. We're very active. So, the best place is really to just message us preferably on Facebook.

[00:44:34] And we have a team of volunteers who check messages every day, respond to it. They're amazing. They're very responsive. They work tirelessly. So, that will be the best place or myself. I mean, obviously anyone can reach out to me and then I can connect them. 

[00:44:49] Lara Quie: Fantastic. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on today, Dipa and thank you for all the work that you do to help people, not just the migrant workers, but also [00:45:00] the volunteers.

[00:45:01] Dipa Swaminathan: Thank you, Lara, it's been great having your support and getting to know you in this process. I love what you're doing with this podcast. It's amazing. I love your energy and you're always positive which is something we can all learn from. So, thank you for doing this and thanks for having me.

[00:45:18] Thank you again.

[00:45:19] Thank you for listening to this episode of the Legal Genie Podcast. If you found the content at all valuable, please leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts. It helps other people in the legal industry find the show. And don't forget to share this with anyone you think would benefit from listening to it as well. Until next time, have a magical week ahead.