50 years as a Senior Clerk with David Grief - Episode 26

In Episode 26 of the Legal Genie Podcast with your host, Lara Quie, is in conversation with a unique guest who has been in the legal industry for half a century, David Grief.

David is probably the world’s most experienced international modern barrister’s clerk.

He was the senior clerk for 38 years for Essex Court Chambers, one of the pre-eminent commercial sets in London and then moved to establish the first London-style chambers in Singapore.  

David started visiting Singapore regularly in the 1980s and has recently opened his own consultancy here called David Grief International Consultancy. 

David shares his life story from unaccomplished school leaver at 17 to a chance encounter with a Queen's Counsel that led to a life of flying private aircraft and driving Aston Martins. 

He describes his early days as a barrister's clerk and how he rose through the ranks to achieve the role of senior clerk at Essex Court Chambers, "the best set in the land". 

David talks about being blessed with a good memory and a genuine interest in people, which have been key to his success as a senior clerk. 

His love of travel and commercial air travel in particular, saw him come to Singapore and other far flung places. Having established good friendships and seen an opportunity to become the first senior barrister's clerk in Singapore, David started a new life here in 2018.

He believes that if you don't ask, you don't get, and that nothing is impossible. 

I hope that you enjoy the conversation.

You can connect with David Grief by email: DG@davidgrief.com

His new website will be at www.davidgrief.com

Also:

·         If you liked this episode, please rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

·         Look out for the next episode coming soon.

You can connect with Lara Quie as follows:

·         On LinkedIn here

·         Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

·          If you have a question, you can e-mail Lara at Lara@LaraQAssociates.com

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Legal Genie Episode 26 with David Grief

[00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for joining me, Lara Quie, for the Legal Genie Podcast. 

[00:00:26] Following my career as a corporate lawyer at Dentons and DLA Piper, I reinvented myself as an entrepreneur. And then as Asia Pacific Head of Business Development at Duane Morris. 

[00:00:38] After a life event introduced me to the world of executive coaching, I set up my own consultancy, where I coach lawyers, leaders, and founders on how to design their best life. 

[00:00:51] I coach on building one's book of business, personal branding, LinkedIn skills, growing self-confidence and how to get to the next level. 

[00:01:00] If you are looking for someone with whom to share your challenges and who can help you move forward, if you are stuck, then reach out to me through my website at www.laraqassociates.com. 

[00:01:12] This podcast is intended to give you an insight into the lives and careers of movers and shakers in the legal industry. 

[00:01:20] I ask my guests to share their best advice with you that I hope you will find helpful in your legal journey. 

[00:01:26] Please rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts to help us reach more people who may find it helpful. 

[00:01:33] I hope that you will enjoy the conversation. 

[00:01:38] Lara Quie: Hello, and welcome to episode 26 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. Today, I have a unique guest who has been in the legal industry for half a century. I'm delighted to have with me, David Grief. David is probably the world's most experienced international modern barrister’s clerk. 

[00:02:00] He was the senior clerk for 38 years for Essex Court Chambers, one of the preeminent commercial sets in London, and then he moved to establish the first London-style chambers in Singapore in 2018. David started visiting Singapore regularly in the 1980s and has recently opened his own consultancy here called David Grief International Consultancy. It's great to have you on the show today, David.

[00:02:26] David Grief: Thank you. 

[00:02:27] Lara Quie: So, tell me a little bit about your family background and where you grew up. 

[00:02:32] David Grief: So, I grew up in Kent south of London in a place called West Wickham. I had one brother, one sister. My father was a potato merchant. I went to school very locally either in West Wickham or then latterly in Bromley, which was four or five miles away. And then at age seventeen I then was very troubled with what to do in my [00:03:00] life. I had always been very keen on flying and spent many days as a child at airports watching airplanes.

[00:03:06] But I wasn't perhaps academically qualified to be an airline pilot. I wanted to go into the travel business and that wasn't a good time in the early seventies. And then just by chance I went to a concert in Croydon in Surrey with my parents one Saturday night and a couple we went with, the husband was Keith Goodfellow.

[00:03:28] He was a QC. He was one of the leading lights in construction law. And he said to me, “David, what are you doing when you leave school?” And I said, “I'm troubled. I don't know. I've got these various leads, but it's not going to work.” He said to me, “well, why don't you come to London? Meet my clerk, Robert Allen.”

[00:03:47] I did. That was in June 1971. Robert then set me up for a one day's work experience in Lamb Building with Eric Cooper, one of the distinguished clerks at the time. I thought that was [00:04:00] fine. It was okay. I enjoyed it. My first experience of going to London and for a day's work experience. I went back to Robert.

[00:04:09] He set up two interviews for me. One in Lincoln's Inn, one in Grey's Inn. The senior clerk in Grey's Inn was fairly senior. The building was a little old, a little dusty. The other job was in Grey's Inn Chambers, which is a modern building. The clerk was much younger, Leslie Paige, and I chose Grey's Inn Chambers, Grey's Inn for the fact that it was a modern building and had a young senior clerk.

[00:04:32] And that's where my career started. Leslie was early thirties. There was a junior clerk between me and the senior clerk. 

[00:04:41] Lara Quie: So, in those days, was it quite common for people not to go onto higher education? So, it sounds like you left school, very young, sort of 16, 17. 

[00:04:52] David Grief: I left school young. Yes, It wasn't the norm to go on to further education. I've got friends that did all sorts of things, not [00:05:00] going to university. I'm not embarrassed by it. I failed all my exams first time round. My dad put me back through school, same year all over again. Second time round failed everything all over again.

[00:05:13] It wasn't, as people will say to me that I was thick. It was just, I really didn't enjoy school but, putting me back through the fifth form all over again was the best thing my father could have done for me.

[00:05:25] Do the class below, but in that year that I went back. I was deputy head boy and school swimming captain. And I felt, I grew up in that one year to the age of 17. And I was just over 17 and a half when I started. So, at that time, it wouldn't be unusual for people to be starting work at 16.

[00:05:45] Lara Quie: And I think it's important to state that context because in modern day life people seem to be going on to further and further degrees. And I'm beginning to see that even an MBA is beginning to look quite common. So, I [00:06:00] think it's good to set the scene because we're talking about a legal career here that spans 50 years, and I want to really paint the picture of what it was like in those days.

[00:06:10] So, in the seventies entering a, almost like an apprenticeship in some ways, right? Becoming a junior clerk at Grey's Inn. You then you entered an apprenticeship. So, tell me about that first experience in that first role. 

[00:06:27] David Grief: Yes. This was all new. I mean, not much before that, I didn't know what a barrister was.

[00:06:32] I didn't know what a solicitor was. I knew nothing about the legal professional at all. In those days, chambers were much smaller. And I think from memory chambers may have been 15 strong. I very roughly may have been 20. I can't tell you precisely. I remember day one, quite clearly, the 16th of August 1971.

[00:06:54] I remember the sun was shining wearing my suit to work. Lunchtime that day was [00:07:00] with the junior clerk above me. It was his birthday and we went to Henicky's Long Bar to celebrate his birthday. That was my first visit to a pub age 17 one year under age.

[00:07:13] So I also celebrated recently my 50 years of my first visit to a pub. But I got into it. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed talking to people, mixing with people what cases they were doing. Yes. I was the boy taking books to court. It was very early days of the photocopier.

[00:07:31] We were one of the first sets of chambers to have a paper copier. So, paper went to court - the file. But there were 10 books, 20 books, 30 books which had to be taken to court. It was quite a walk to court because one had to cross over Holborn, walk right the way through Lincoln's Inn and go into the back entrance to the law courts in Carey Street. 

[00:07:52] But yeah, that's how it happened particularly in the summer, pretty hot struggling to court and back with books. And that was [00:08:00] it. I'm making tea, running around, going to the stationery office opportunities to answer the phone and gradually see what was going on. And that played more of a part as a clerk. 

[00:08:13] Christmas 1971, Keith, my immediate senior left and I was keen to take his job although I was very new in the job myself. My senior clerk supported that. So, I was given the opportunity. So, within six months I was the first junior clerk and I had a junior clerk below me.

[00:08:33] So I didn't have to do so much of the running around and I just grew into the job quite natural. And then through my time as a junior clerk at Grey's Inn Chambers through to 1976 I wanted to look at what I could do with my future, my senior clerk said that the best job in the land is Four Essex Court. I [00:09:00] thought to myself I could never achieve a job like that. I would have to get the experience as a senior clerk first. Luck would have it a job came up at 17 Old Buildings, Lincoln's Inn, in a chancery tax trust set.

[00:09:15] I applied, I got the job and I started there in February 1977. So, my time as a junior clerk was relatively short. I was senior at clerk by the age of 23. The very training ground frustrating compared to life in Grey's Inn Chambers, which was commercial set banking, local government work planning work the great Richard Yorke QC of the time, Sir Douglas Frank, who was involved in planning, local government lands tribunal work.

[00:09:48] It was a very successful set, but quite a young set. It only moved to Grey's Inn Chambers in 1965 been around for many years before that. But it was a [00:10:00] very go ahead set, particularly with, Richard Yorke, there moving to Lincoln's Inn, which is a little dusty. Members of chambers were quite slow. It was quite frustrating. The work was tax, trusts, chancery work. But my time there taught me patience. Taught me how to handle difficult people. I learnt a lot in that time in handling what I regarded quite difficult people. And then at the beginning of 1980, the job at Four Essex Court came up. And I couldn't quite believe it. This was described being five years previous by Leslie Paige as just the best job in the land.

[00:10:41] So I went back to Grey's Inn, spoke to Leslie, the senior clerk and Richard Yorke to say, “what do you think?” And they said, “go for it!” And that's what I did. I went for it. Two interviews and got that job and started there at Four Essex [00:11:00] Court. that then became Essex Court Chambers on the 1st of October 1980. So again, my time from starting as the boy in chambers to being senior clerk at the best set in the land was nine years. 

[00:11:13] Now quite why it happened for me. I do not know must've got something right along the way. So, I spent a relatively short time as a junior clerk and the rest of time as a senior clerk.

[00:11:24] Lara Quie: What is the difference between junior clerk and senior clerk? 

[00:11:29] David Grief: As first junior, which I was there quite quickly in my life, I was the deputy to the senior clerk. When the senior clerk was on holiday, I'd be running the shop. And slowly I would do more and more of that.

[00:11:44] I wasn't the main person, but I was Leslie's deputy, and he would set more and more. I would watch the way he worked. I learned a great deal from him. Talking more to solicitors, agreeing the fees. One couldn't say I was [00:12:00] managing the practices, but slowly as time went on, as a junior clerk I was then talking to members of chambers about the practices, dealing with the fees more and less. He gave me more and more opportunities. I always remember the first occasion when he suggested I rung up a solicitor to agree a fee. And he said, “David, 75 pounds on this case.” I thought I'd be clever and ask a hundred pounds, which I did.

[00:12:25] I got severely told off for doing that. I said, “David, ask for 75

[00:12:32] and don’t think you can get more.” That was a lesson learned, but there were a lot of lessons learnt. So, it's changed a bit now because chambers have got so much bigger and sometimes junior clerks don't really want to have the responsibility of being in charge.

[00:12:48] The terminology has changed. You now have deputy senior clerks. So, the basic junior clerk to some extent. But in my day was very much junior clerk was unheard of [00:13:00] in that time as junior clerk I had a lot of support and help from the silks at that time they were a friendly bunch.

[00:13:08] It was one thing that I've tried to carry through my career is chambers is like a family. It got more and more difficult. Chambers grew. We were 40, 50, 60, 70 people strong that family the way that I used to like it as a family went, but certainly it was a family feeling in Grey's Inn Chambers and in 17 Old Buildings Lincoln's Inn where I went next.

[00:13:31] And I started at Essex Court when there were only 21 members of chambers. And I wanted to continue what I learned, which was treating it like a family and the relationship between the clerk and the member of chambers. And they were concerned about my welfare as much as my job as their clerk was concerned about their welfare.

[00:13:52] But invaluable, support from the members of chambers and learnt a lot and, they were interested in me, and I was interested in them. [00:14:00] 

[00:14:00] Lara Quie: Yeah. It's fascinating dealing with those kinds of individuals, such intellectuals, and obviously very strong personalities as well because to be a barrister at that time the gravitas involved, the learnedness that they had the connections, all sorts of things, but it's interesting how it was all about relationships.

[00:14:22] So learning about how to handle all of these very disparate individuals. Learning their moods when is a good time to check in on them to discuss something difficult, how to observe how much work they had so it sounds like the job involved being a very organized person.

[00:14:44] Also you have an amazing memory. I can really tell the way that you are very precise on dates people's names. You have huge numbers of people that you've met in your life, but you remember each individual's names. How has your fantastic [00:15:00] memory helped you in this role?

[00:15:02] David Grief: It's been key and a lot of people are amazed at the things I remember. It's when you have conversations like this, that come back into focus, and this has happened in the last few weeks, people have gone out with me celebrating 50 years in the job. We've had a few glasses of champagne celebrating my new set up.

[00:15:23] I was out last night with someone celebrating and then when you talk, you suddenly remember occasion which was 50 years ago. But I remember it like yesterday. I've been blessed with having a good memory. It served me well just adding another aspect about life. I've always seen myself as a clerk as not equal, not better than, great mistake, but slightly servient.

[00:15:48] I get told off for saying that because many members of the bar say, "David, you're much better than I am" not subservient, but I've always had that attitude of that's where I stood just slightly below. And I think that's [00:16:00] served me well, at least perhaps in the earlier times, the life in Gray's Inn Chambers as a junior clerk.

[00:16:06] I mean, I just tell you this story very briefly and I was mad keen on airplanes, ever since I can remember, probably back to the age of five. I used to stand at Gatwick Airport, Heathrow airport, just marvelling at airplanes. Always wanted to learn to fly. As I said, I wanted to be an airline pilot and Richard Yorke QC had an airplane and I couldn't believe that I'd met some who had an airplane. And for the first Christmas in chambers, he gave me a flying lesson and the membership to his flying club. I thought I wasn't clever enough to do that. I waited seven months before my first flying lesson. I took my first flying lesson in July 1972 and qualified as a private pilot the following March.

[00:16:48] So in a relatively short time. I suddenly had a pilot's license and off I was flying myself and quite quickly Richard Yorke said to me, “David go and do a twin rating and [00:17:00] then you can fly my airplane.” And I had the keys to his airplane. 

[00:17:04] Richard had an Aston Martin and said to me "David, I'll drive you down with the books in the back, and then you bring the car back to chambers.” So not only did I find myself flying airplanes, I found myself driving Aston Martins as a junior clerk. Unheard of today, but that's the way it was and that's how I got on.

[00:17:22] I could've ducked all of it, but I just grabbed every moment. In 2023, I will have had a pilot's licence for 50 years. And Douglas Frank, who I mentioned earlier had a planning practice and he had a case for South Hampton airport. I got to know the client, a guy called Nat Summers and went flying with him in his Piper Aztec.

[00:17:43] And he said, "David, you're much better off being a clerk than an air frame driver" as he described it. “You've got so many exciting opportunities ahead of you” and there I was 19, 20 years of age. But I wanted to be an airline pilot. Now that novelty [00:18:00] has never worn off for me. I enjoy every time I go commercial flying. I envy the crew and everything about it.

[00:18:07] I'd spent before September 11 2001 many hours flying on flight decks with aircrews sitting in the jump seat, just because I'm a private pilot, “can I come on the flight deck?” No one ever said no. 

[00:18:19] Lara Quie: That's absolutely fascinating. And what really stands out for me though, is two words, I'd say, so one is “serendipity” and the other word is “generosity”. So, in terms of serendipity, you have been exceedingly lucky. So that trip to the theatre with the QC, who then introduced you to the concept of being a clerk, then the fact that Richard Yorke had a pilot's licence himself and had an airplane and identified in you your interest and he gave you that opportunity. 

But what it takes on your part [00:19:00] though, is the fact that you enthusiastically took him up on these things. And I think that is the difference, because when you talk about what it was like in those days in the early seventies, someone of your background probably would have said, "oh, I couldn't possibly, gosh, I can't believe look at that QC. I can't even talk to him. No, it's not for the likes of me. We don't do that.” But you didn't, you engaged and you were able through your enthusiasm and common interests, you were able to form relationships with these people, for the sheer joy of your common interest. 

[00:19:41] David Grief: Yes. And why? I don't know.

[00:19:44] I mean, I've always felt through life I'm on a journey. It's part of a book. I don't want to know what the last chapter is but I do feel that I'm on a journey. There has been some luck right place, right time. But I think that was meant to be. 

[00:19:58] And I've had a [00:20:00] vision in my life as to where I want to go to, but never thought that was possible. And I remember talking with Conrad Sheman, who then was, became our judge in Europe and he talked to me in the seventies about “don't do it too quickly.

[00:20:15] Don't burn yourself out.” And I always remember that conversation. I never burned myself out, but I probably did work far too hard. And I am criticized for this. There was a fine line between work and family life. And often I fell the wrong side of that line work was my career, what I was doing, the excitement of it all did take priority.

[00:20:41] Many times. And people would say that was perhaps wrong, but that was just the way I was, but it was a very fine line between family life and work. 

[00:20:51] Lara Quie: That's often a very difficult balance when it comes to the legal industry as a whole, isn't it? It is based around certainly in private [00:21:00] practice, obviously there are hours targets. It's not so much structured in the same way obviously for barristers. It's not based so much on time is it? It's more about the brief and the actual project, so the case involved. So how would you price a case?

[00:21:15] David Grief: How would I price the case? That's a skill that you learned over time. It's talking to the member of chambers about the case what's, involved. What are the issues? What's the end result? What does it mean for the client?

[00:21:32] How much money is at stake? The member of chambers concerned. There are the sort of rock stars and rock stars you can't price a rockstar by the hour. The rockstar has a value and that value's in my head because the person goes to court, the judges know the reputation of that person.

[00:21:53] So, when that person is addressing the court will take on board what it's been saying. So, you quickly have a [00:22:00] feel for what the case is worth through 50 years of clerking. 

[00:22:04] I was credited of asking for the first brief fee of 1 million pounds. And there's a story there, which I won't say it now. I didn't get 1 million. I think I got 850,000 pounds, but I always made it a point of going to see the instructing solicitor or the instructing lawyer. I often felt that I had the advantage.

[00:22:26] We would start the conversation, not about the fees, but about what'd you do at the weekend and the family and everything else. So, you warm the person up before you dive in for the kill. And that often worked for me. And I'd never been one when it comes to fees of written in stone.

[00:22:48] I always had the reputation of standing by what I believed in I would negotiate. A bit but I wouldn't just ask a fee for the sake of it and had a reputation for that. [00:23:00] And never anything

[00:23:01] I asked was never written in stone even to this day. It's not written in stone. There's always some flexibility. There's always some reasons to why the fee, won't quite stand. “David, what you're asking for, but we understand why you're asking it.” So, it's knowing the market, knowing the solicitor or the lawyer you're dealing with and being flexible and not having a reputation of pushing it.

[00:23:23] Lara Quie: That's definitely the important point there. I think it's that idea of fairness. So based on your experienced based on the individual barrister involved, you mentioned rockstars certain QCs who, by their reputation, the moment that you hire them, the other side knows that you're serious and will often settle purely when they hear who you've got on board.

[00:23:52] David Grief: Or they bring in a rock star themselves. Then you have two rockstars in court. 

[00:23:57] Lara Quie: Exactly. Which is ideal but, [00:24:00] definitely it's about that. And so, I'd like to talk about your personal reputation that you've built over the years in terms of the word integrity. And I think this is what it's all about because at the end of the day, the role as senior clerk is very much the middleman.

[00:24:18] So, you could get people who have a let's say car dealer mindset, who, as you say were just going for the top price will not think about the case a whole in detail but will think there's a lot of money at stake here. What shall I just go for and pluck a figure out of the air and not be able to justify these fees et cetera, whereas your extensive knowledge of the case, the individuals, the scenario.

[00:24:45] So really understanding the law and the legal system and how long things take, what a decision might be looking at the legal world as a whole is what has stood you in good stead. So, in terms of [00:25:00] integrity, did you notice that there were people who did not have integrity and that actually it was the lynchpin to a successful career as a senior clerk?

[00:25:09] David Grief: I agree with that. I mean, people would say that they trust my judgment and that was key and my first visit to Singapore with Four Essex Court as it was then in November 1981. Got to know quite a few lawyers at that time. And those lawyers I met in 1981 have become personal friends and still friends today.

[00:25:32] And some of them are in the Supreme Court here in Singapore. We've all grown up together, but I was the junior clerk, they were a client. That's a sort of Singapore situation. In the UK, I was the first perhaps clerk to get out of London, go to Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle, Cardiff. And they met me.

[00:25:54] I met them. I saw where they worked. I could see the view out of their window. [00:26:00] And there was one senior partner of Addleshaws in Manchester and John said, "David, the senior clerk from Kings street has never been to see me. The fact that you come to Manchester is good enough. You can go home now.”

[00:26:14] Of course I didn't. But I did make quite a mark in and just the way I behaved and the way that I felt this was the way to do business. And I had a clear run, I mean, the local bar wanted to do commercial work, but they didn't have the calibre of members that I had from London.

[00:26:32] And they would ask higher fees than I had asked, but they didn't have the expertise. And I from my own reputation that, that did give me a lot of good. So, I did a lot of travelling around and then it was after having done the rounds in the UK, I then started to do the rounds overseas, and I wanted to know the people that I'm dealing with because it's so much easier to know what the person looks like, what the office looks like.

[00:26:58] And of course now [00:27:00] in the last few years with Zoom, I have been having zoom calls with people I've never met before in India.  “David, we’ve got a new case. Can we have a word on the phone?” and I'd say, "why don't we zoom?" And then we have the Zoom call like I used to, when I went to Manchester, you start off about the weather and the weekend.

[00:27:16] And all other things before we even get on to the nature of the call. You then make a bit of a bond to start with. And that's, been my life all the way through. I just enjoy meeting people. I've travelled that going back to 1971 I wanted to be a pilot.

[00:27:32] Couldn't do that. I wanted to go into the travel business and see the world. I couldn't do that. But as a clerk, I've learned to fly and I've been as far west as the Caribbean and as far east, as Fiji. All for work and all points in between. So, I think it's been a wonderful, time and it's still going.

[00:27:51] Lara Quie: It seems to me; your love of flying is what made you so willing to do all of those overseas trips? So, from the [00:28:00] early eighties, right? Any excuse to get on an airplane, you were there. 

[00:28:06] David Grief: I think that's probably the key. Absolutely. 

[00:28:11] Lara Quie: So, you probably came over to Singapore in the early eighties and enjoyed the flight, enjoyed the trip and said, right folks, we should make this an annual thing. I'll plan this in the diary. 

[00:28:21] David Grief: Correct. That's the way it happened but in the 80s you had to stop twice on the way to Singapore. You had to stop in Bahrain. And then it was stop in Bombay. And then the Bahrain bit was dropped and then it was Bombay and then nonstop.

[00:28:36] I've seen all that. Going back to airplanes, I took Concord. In the six months before they scrapped it. I went to New York for work, and I planned it that I got a very good deal with British Airways Concord return. When I checked into British Airways for New York, they felt sorry for me and upgraded me to business class.

[00:28:54] But I just wanted to go on Concord and because that was for me the ultimate experience. [00:29:00] So I bet you're right. But also, because I love meeting people and I love different countries whether I, to Nigeria or whether it's to Uganda or whether it's to the BVI or whether it's to Korea or Singapore, so many different people, cultures, but I've always enjoyed the challenge of how to be myself.

[00:29:20] Always wanted to be the slight humbled character. Always regarded that as key to learn about them before they learn about me. 

[00:29:27] Lara Quie: It's fascinating actually, because right now, when it comes to leadership, the whole key is humble leadership, servant leadership.

[00:29:36] It's about people who are followed because people want to follow them. And how do they get to that position? It's because they listen to the people around them. So, it seems to me that all of these modern leadership styles are actually the style that you've practiced for the last 50 years.

[00:29:57] And your curious mindset that you [00:30:00] have is actually the secret to your success. It's the fact that you are really, curious about other people and, those relationships and listening to them, understanding what makes them tick, where do they live? You mentioned, "oh, I would travel miles to visit the people in their setting".

[00:30:19] What does their setting look like? What is the weather outside their window? When I speak to them on the phone, I imagine where they're sitting, because I've seen their office and I know about their kids. I know what their hobbies are. So that's the mindset, isn't it? 

[00:30:35] David Grief: It is the mindset. And I've many friends give me credit when I first came to Singapore. And I was just the way I was day one when I came here. There's no book, I'd had no training my whole life has been training on the job and I still learn things today. It's been a journey.

[00:30:54] I've had to deal with all situations in my life as a marriage counsellor, [00:31:00] psychiatrist as a bereavement counsellor for members of chambers in a sort of difficult time not necessarily full nervous breakdown, bit of an issue, how to deal with that. I've done everything but it's all about listening.

[00:31:14] I've sat in front of members of chambers in tears, male or female and then I've had personal issues. And then I go and talk to members of chambers about it because I can get counselling from them. So that's the family side, which is we're all in this together. 

[00:31:27] Lara Quie: Yeah. That's a wonderful thing. It's testament to your position as a trusted advisor to the legal industry as a whole. And so, let's talk a little bit about your move to Singapore. So, 2018 was a big year, tell me what happened and why you moved from the UK to Singapore. 

[00:31:49] David Grief: So, I've had a dream for a long time going back probably 10 plus years because in 1981, when I first came here, so probably about 2005, [00:32:00] 2006, I built this friendship with a lot of senior lawyers some had become judges.

[00:32:04] And I was again, trusted that I would be asked for help about the setup the SIAC, the Singapore International Arbitration Centre, the conversations about the setup of Maxwell Chambers here. And I was slowly feeling I had a belonging that everybody liked me when I turned up, wanted to meet with me, talk to me.

[00:32:25] I had this vision some years ago, I wanted to be the first senior clerk in Singapore. I used to bore people with that thinking. That's what I want to do. In 2018, I was 65. So, reaching retirement with Essex Court Chambers, and you've got to let others have a go. You can't stick at the job.

[00:32:43] And I didn't want to just stick at the job and be thrown out. I thought it was the best thing to retire, but I had something to go on to, which was chambers here in Singapore. So that was all part of my journey. So, when I got off the airplane, the end of July, [00:33:00] 2018, and walked onto Singapore soil in my head, I said, "I am the first senior clerk in Singapore and no one can now take that away from me. I'm in the history books as being the first senior clerk in Singapore." And I spent half my time in London doing business development with Essex Court Chambers in London, half my time in Singapore as senior clerk.

[00:33:23] And then I felt that I wasn't neither one place nor the other. And I was eight weeks here, eight weeks there and by the end of 2019 I was going back to London in November 2019, and I had to go back, and I really didn't want to leave Singapore.

[00:33:39] I was very happy here and I went back, and I spoke to then the current head of chambers, David Foxton. And I said, "I want to give up London and I want to throw my hat totally into Singapore" and he said, "are you sure?" And I said, " absolutely sure". So, at the beginning of January, 2020 I arrived here full time.

[00:33:59] I, of [00:34:00] course didn't know about COVID. Nobody did at that time, but also the best decision because I wouldn't have been able to leave Singapore. And I haven't left Singapore since for COVID reasons. But that's how sort of Singapore came along in my life. I've always regarded Singapore as my second home and now it's my first home.

[00:34:19] And if I can be here for another 10 years, I have all sorts of things I want to do and am doing and having success with. And it's where I feel I belong. I'm getting under the skin of Singapore, I'm being asked to help in various the academy of law with the dispute resolution academy my group here that I'm establishing a young Singapore public international law group, all these things which I enjoy.

[00:34:45] And it's often said to me, "David, you're more Singaporean than most Singaporeans" that I want to be seen Singaporean for these reasons Local and I love it. I love it. And I just feel, this is again, [00:35:00] part of my journey and this was where I was which started in Singapore in November 1981.

[00:35:06] But here we are in November 2021 almost 40 years later and sitting in Singapore being interviewed by you. Yes, 

[00:35:16] Lara Quie: Indeed. Here you are. And what it says though, and what I want young lawyers in particular. And when I say young, I do mean anybody 50 and under, your career just demonstrates that with the right mindset, you can do everything and what a journey you've had.

[00:35:37] I love the fact that at 65 you said, right, I'm going to retire from this particular set, but I'm starting a whole new life in a brand-new country. You had set yourself up very well for that prepared many, years in advance. You'd follow the dream. You'd set up the path, all of the relationships you needed to establish yourself [00:36:00] here.

[00:36:00] When you arrived, you embraced being in Singapore, you just mentioned how much you feel a Singaporean at home. You've got all of these friends who you've known for over 20, 30 years so is a home from home and the zeal that you have for establishing a whole brand-new business and an opportunity.

[00:36:21] So tell me a little bit, I know we're going to finish off here, but just tell me about David Grief International Consultancy. You've just set up. So, tell us about what you do. And what you're offering to people here. 

[00:36:35] David Grief: So, can I just, raise one other point before we get onto that, because this is an important point. I lost my wife through cancer in February 2017, but she knew exactly what I wanted to do. She was 100% support. She was going to come with me to not necessarily full time, but to shuttle backwards and forwards to London with our grownup kids. So, my dream was always shared with my family. [00:37:00] 

[00:37:00] And sometimes my kids say to me, dad, what are you doing in Singapore all this time? I said, well, mum knew what I wanted to do. And this is, this was where I wanted to get to. But I just wanted to raise that. So, what I'm doing, I knew, I know it was with my late wife blessing while my kids understand that this is my life.

[00:37:19] So I retired from Duxton Hill Chambers on the 16th of August this year. I set up my company with amazing help from one of the leading law firms here in Singapore to help me get my employment pass, which was challenging because it's quite unique, I think for an expat to have his own company and be employed by his own company and nothing else.

[00:37:44] And so I got my employment pass a few weeks ago. And as I say, after quite a challenge to set up David Grief International Consultancy but it really is same old doing the same job, doing what I've always done. [00:38:00] I'm working for myself so I can do anything I like now rather than being within a chambers model.

[00:38:07] But as Toby Landau said to me, who I've clerked since 1994, "David, this is what you're best at.” Getting out now of the chambers structure, because there are things that I really didn't enjoy doing, and I can now do what I'm best at which is meeting people collaborating with people, mentoring people.

[00:38:27] I'm still clerking Toby. I clerk a silk from London because he has a Singapore profile and an Australian profile for GST. I clerk a senior advocate, one of the leading senior advocates in Delhi helping him to raise his profile in Singapore. I'm going to help a number of law firms here, three in total in sort of BD work outside Singapore.

[00:38:56] In work into Singapore. And one of the things I want to do in my [00:39:00] business is to help Singapore, grow in the international dispute resolution world. And I do quite a lot of that outside of Singapore when people talk and how does it work and how can you help us? A number of junior lawyers here in sole practice, I will act as their clerk sometimes just as an advisor, mentor, collaborator, or full-on clerking services that I provide to Toby. 

I've got lawyers that I'm going to assist in Sydney. Lawyers or barristers in London there is one law firm in Europe that wants hep into Singapore. I was talking to a law firm in Lagos, one of the leading law firms on zoom recently, who is very interested in moving east and I'd like to help them and by being in Singapore, it's the best part of the world, because two to three hours’ time difference to parts of Australia, 12 hours difference to the States, at least on the east coast, seven or eight hours to London time, [00:40:00] perfectly situated here to, run the sort of international business from Singapore.

[00:40:04] It is just connecting, collaborating, mentoring, and helping people with sort of 50 years of experience. One thing I was always worried about in life. if I ever lost my job, I thought, gosh, what would I do? Cause I don't know about anything else. The law has always been where I belonged.

[00:40:22] Lara Quie: So, what advice can you give for our young listeners? What are the best pieces of advice that you think you'd like to pass on to the next generation of lawyers?

[00:40:32] David Grief: I think there is one key. And it's a frustration here for me and I'm talking lawyers in this part of the world. And it's a cultural thing, but if you have a sort of ambition, if there's something you want to do in your law firm. If you don't ask. You don't get. And one thing I've always grown up and there are so many examples I can give just saying to cabin crew, "Hey, can I go into the cockpit?"

[00:40:59] If you [00:41:00] never asked, you never get there, but there's a problem here in Singapore that people, because cultural, don't like to push themselves forward and ask, and if I could help change people here in Singapore a bit to these are all sorts of opportunities. You've just got to raise your hand and ask.

[00:41:18] Lara Quie: So, David, give me a good example of the "if you don't ask you don't get".

[00:41:24] David Grief: Going back to the early 2000s. Essex Court Chambers sponsored the English Speaking Union mooting competition. This was a competition which ran through the universities, and I felt that it gave chambers good profile with law students.

[00:41:38] The President of the English Speaking Union was the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Phillip. And so, the winners of our competition got a presentation at Buckingham Palace, and I went to Buckingham Palace a few times.

[00:41:53] It was a very relaxed casual affair. Prince Phillip would be there. It's his home. He would sort of wander [00:42:00] into the lounge where we, where there was no pomp or circumstance. He was there. I got to know him quite well. But he had in his head, and I couldn't shift it. He called us "Essex Chambers”, he never used the word "Court".

[00:42:14] And I had this vision that he thought we came from Stratford in East London, and I had to somehow correct this. So, in June 2008, I wrote him a letter inviting him to lunch in chambers thinking. I'm never going to hear any more. And then in November 2008, I got a phone call from Buckingham Palace saying, could I keep this date in November free?

[00:42:38] Now at that point I had told only one person in chambers that I had written to Prince Philip, because the reaction from the head of chambers could be, "you silly person, what have you done this for? Or words stronger than that or "that is brilliant". Anyway, it turned out that that was brilliant, and the Duke of Edinburgh did come into chambers.

[00:42:56] It is the first time, that a member of the Royal family [00:43:00] went to chambers for lunch, and we had to work with the Royal caterers, and we had to do everything, but it was a magnificent day of Prince Philip turning up in his green taxi, which was his transport. And he walked up the steps and saw the chambers board listing all the members of chambers.

[00:43:17] And the first thing he said, "You look after that lot?" I met him as many times afterwards, but he still referred to Essex Chambers. I never got it into his head that we were Essex Court Chambers, but that's an example. If I hadn't asked it would have never happened. So, there you go.

[00:43:34] I think also, nothing's impossible. Never sit there and think I'm never going to be able to do this because I thought I can never learn to fly an airplane. I was completely thick, I thought. All the stuff produced by the civil aviation authority. Couldn't even get my head around it. But when I had my first flying lesson and nine months later, I have my licence. And so, I the other bit better advice is nothing's impossible. Don't ask, don't get nothing's [00:44:00] impossible.

[00:44:00] And I think that is key. Of course, the world has changed in the legal profession, but if you want to become a lawyer, you've got to have a degree. And it needs to be a good degree because there's so much competition. So yes, you've got to have the necessary qualifications and necessary tools, but thereafter nothing's impossible and I'm always happy to talk to people and guide, mentor, push them along a bit to achieve their dream.

[00:44:26] It can be done. Sometimes you get a little bit stuck in a rut and you need to be lifted out of that rut and given an opportunity to take another course. That's what I've done it's how I've achieved it, but doing it in a sort of humble, not thinking that I'm arrogant in any sense Hey, I can do anything because I have, it's just slowly, working your way through it. You can get there. 

[00:44:48] Lara Quie: Wonderful. So, if people want to connect with you, David, how can people get in touch with you?

[00:44:53] David Grief: I don't have a website yet. But they could email me at DG@davidgrief.com

[00:45:04] But I will have a website hopefully by Christmas. Onwards and upwards for me. 

[00:45:08] Lara Quie: Absolutely, onwards and upwards, David, to the sky and beyond.

[00:45:15] Thank you for being on the show today. 

[00:45:17] David Grief: Thank you very much. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

[00:45:20] Thank you for listening to this episode of the Legal Genie Podcast. If you found the content at all valuable, please leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts. It helps other people in the legal industry find the show. And don't forget to share this with anyone you think would benefit from listening to it as well. Until next time, have a magical week ahead.